Warung Bebas

Wednesday, August 29, 2012

Women and sex in Saudi Arabia

by Esra'a (Bahrain)

If you are a frequent reader of Arab News, which is by far one of the best news sources from the Arab world, you would have noticed two themes within one of the strictest countries in the region: Sex and drugs in Saudi Arabia.
I choose to first discuss the theme of sex and gender as it is a major taboo here in the Arab world.
Consider this most recent article, which states some horrifying statistics:
RIYADH, 10 April 2007 – Saudi courts have recently seen a number of cases in which women have demanded divorces saying they have been subject to marital rape and unwanted sexual activities by their partners.
As sex continues to remain a taboo subject in the Kingdom’s conservative society, some social activists believe that tribal traditions prevent women from coming out in the open and reporting sexual assaults.
An Internet poll conducted by a local newspaper showed that 42 percent of married Saudi men say they do not have sexual problems. Meanwhile, 93 percent of married women surveyed said they were experiencing sexual problems.
Okay, so it’s an internet poll, not exactly the most reliable method of examining public opinion but you can definitely see some sort of a trend. Unwanted sex throughout marriage is not something that only Saudi women face, but it is some widely accepted belief in Muslim societies that men have dominance over a woman’s body and that it is haram (forbidden) for a woman not to submit herself to her husband’s sexual needs.
Then again, how reliable is this supposed pattern? We are once again reminded here of the unreliability of that specific percentage but we must also consider how hard it is to examine these things if not many want to participate in such crucial studies:
“It’s difficult to carry out any scientific survey, as few women are willing to open up and discuss their sexual lives,” she added.
And thus we can’t find out whether or not this view represents the majority.
Now here’s something for all the Muslim-bashers out there who insist on gender discrimination and cruelty to women being evidenced throughout the Quran (yet, for some odd reason, also insist on NOT giving direct sources supporting their insults to our religion):
From an Islamic perspective, violence against one’s wife or wives has been condemned. The Qur’an explicitly calls on men to treat their women well.
Indeed. Paradise is under the feet of women. From mothers to wives, women are praised throughout our holy book.
One would ask in this case, what options does a woman have if placed under such pressure?
Saudi scholar Sheikh Abdul Mohsin Al-Obaikan told Arab News, “Women need to stand up and refuse such treatment from their husbands by threatening to leave or leaving home for a short while. If a husband doesn’t mend his ways then the law gives women the option of seeking a divorce.”
This is an easy statement to make, but it’s very hard to apply. Many men will simply not allow their wives to leave. This is so hard, in fact, that certain women have picked suicide as a last resort. It happens, it’s not something I would consider uncommon.
Dr. Zain Al-Abidin explains this difficulty further when she says:
There are many reasons that force women to keep on living with their husbands after being sexually assaulted. There is a lack of moral support from society. However, most families blame women for failing to fulfill their husbands’ needs and for continuing to suffer in silence.
And her action against this is a good one. Education and awareness:
Dr. Zain Al-Abidin added that people in Saudi society lack knowledge about sex. She further called for a campaign at schools and mosques to encourage awareness about sexual issues.
I would argue that we can easily extend this to other Muslim societies, namely Yemen, Indonesia, and the most obvious of all, Afghanistan.


  1. Umar Farooq ( Pakistan )
    I agree to the crux of the matter here. Education and awareness is very important. However, when societies even become conservative about education of a particular sort, it becomes extremely difficult to mend their ways.
    Conservation to education eventually leads to ignorance. I wonder how can Saudia coexist as the center of Islamic world as well as one of the most ignorant states in terms of human rights that Islam stands up for.


  2. Nadia ( Tunisia )
    how can Saudia coexist as the center of Islamic world as well as one of the most ignorant states in terms of human rights that Islam stands up for.
    That’s a good question!!
    Obviously this has nothing to do with islam, this behavior results from old traditions that they have mixed up with religion to make it legitimate


  3. Nadia ( Canada and Iraq )
    yeah the tradition vs. islam debate is one i see a lot; i liked this article on the subject.
    this definitely isn’t an issue that’s unique to saudi. i think the united states legally recognized rape can happen within married couples like 30 years ago, and certain latin american countries still have laws that if a girl gets raped the rapist can get off the hook if he marries the victim.
    i remember reading in india, iran, and pakistan women have a really hard time initiating divorce as opposed to men, but i’m not too knowledgable on what the rules are in most arab countries (and i’m assuming saudi is quite different than most) so i can’t really speak to that.
    in general though, it seems that religious groups have the perception that informative sexual education makes people want to do all the things they hear about but usually it’s the opposite. when people are educated, they tend to know when things are leading to somewhere they don’t want to go, and people are more likely to put their foot down and say no to things.
    i’ve read about programs for education in cairo and syria, but i have no idea how common they are.
    i’m not sure if there’s something specific here you’d like me to address so i think i’ll leave it at that for now.


  4. Bashar ( Jordan )
    Dr. Zain Al-Abidin added that people in Saudi society lack knowledge about sex. She further called for a campaign at schools and mosques to encourage awareness about sexual issues.
    truly tragic ….. I cant imagine myself being a women in Saudi Arabia .. but if i was .. i surely wont fight for anything .. the best thing to do is to immigrate … probably most of you think id be a quitter … will rightly so … I would rather have a good quality of life than fighting with close-minded ppl and a regime that doesnt have any respect for its ppl …
    PPL you wither fight or immigrate … and dont just stand still and do nothin about it !!!


  5. Omar ( Jordan )
    I think it’s all about the version of Islam a muslim society is adopting. Saudi Arabian imams happen to read the orthodox version, they don’t invent stuff! When it’s crystal clear in the Sunnah that the wife must “almost” worship her husband who in return have full control over her body any time he wishes (“even if she’s on a camel!”) and has full rights to get up to four women (plus as many sex slaves as he wishes), it becomes really hard to create a balance between those male divine rights and the fact that he should respect his women, and if you add the lovely Arabic traditions to the formula, this is the least you can get!
    A rehabilitation to the religious institute is what they need, it’s ultra hard for any woman to stand up against this kind of society, she’ll be buried alive, not to mention that by default, women are programmed to be “patient” and keep quite, and that the more patient she is the better for her in the afterlife, which is again crystal clear in the Koran and Sunnah.
    how can Saudia coexist as the center of Islamic world as well as one of the most ignorant states in terms of human rights that Islam stands up for.
    Well, not all the versions of Islam stand up for human rights, at least not the ones you’re referring to, and most importantly not women rights.


  6. Umar Farooq ( Pakistan )
    Versions of Islam ?
    That seriously went over my head. How many versions of Islam there are ? Version 1, Version 1.2, Liberal Version, Conservative Version 3.2 …
    Please help with the classification so that we can which versions are we following individually.


  7. Nadia ( Tunisia )
    Omar
    I don’t agree about the concept of “versions” of islam, and it’s not “crystal clear” for me that islam is encouraging rape or something like that. It’s a question of whether you accept to use your brain or not, to adapt old traditions from 1400 years ago to the social evolution, to accept that the most important is to understand the spirit that stands behind every line and to accept that Coran must be re-interpreted continuously. I’m from a muslim country but our laws have been modified 50 years ago to protect women from “orthodox” interpretation mixed with traditions and abuse, and nobody is complaining or asking them to go back and act like women from the 7th century.


  8. Omar ( Jordan )
    The last thing I want is to be labeled as the next enemy of Islam, I’m gonna pull off gently but will not give the privilege of satisfaction to anyone.
    Umar Al Farooq,

    That seriously went over my head. How many versions of Islam there are ? Version 1, Version 1.2, Liberal Version, Conservative Version 3.2 …
    In case you haven’t noticed, there are a little more than 100 version of Islam along the way. If you don’t like the phrase, try your luck with ‘millah’, ‘nehal’, ‘mazhab’, etc.. ,suit yourself.
    Nadia, I never said Islam encourages rape! I said some orthodox interpretations does! and if you can’t see that, well, look closer sis!
    the most important is to understand the spirit that stands behind every line and to accept that Coran must be re-interpreted continuously.
    I’m all for that, believe me! All I’m saying that there are A LOT in the Quran and Sunnah that could be used against women! I won’t throw accusations in the air, so I’m gonna help you out and ask you how can you re-interpret verses like these:
    “Yahya related to me from Malik that he had asked Ibn Shihab about a man who had a slave-girl as a wife, and then he bought her, and divorced her once. He said, “She is halal for him by the possession of the right hand as long as he does not make his divorce irrevocable. If he irrevocably divorces her, she is not halal for him by the possession of the right hand until she has married another husband.” [source]
    “عن النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏لو كنت آمرا أحدا أن يسجد لأحد لأمرت المرأة أن تسجد لزوجها ”
    how about polygamy?! How about 13 wives for the prophet? believe me, the list will never stop.
    Personally, I have my own interpretations, and I know that Islam can be adjusted to fit this world, but tell that to someone reading directly from the books.


  9. Nadia ( Tunisia )
    Omar
    I got your point of view, I’m just saying you have to be careful not to confuse these people’s way of reading the religious texts and the actual spirit of islam. I have my own interpretation too. everybody should try to understand and think about it by himself.
    First of all, the “verse” you are talking about is not a “verse”, it’s a hadith, and -I will shock some people here- I don’t make a big deal of hadiths myself because after all it has a human source and is dependant of a lot of historical circumstances, not only the prophet lived 1400 years ago, but also think about all the men who kept it unwritten for 250 years at least. I don’t take the “verification” thing as absolutely reliable. Do you get my point ?
    Now Quran is so complex and full of subtil metaphores, links to historical events, references about real situations, that it’s stupid to read it like any other text, but a lot of muslims are doing infortunately. The polygamy is so out of date, and the verses about it are so linked to conditions that you have to be a real angel to respect them… It may be easier for me to have this point of view as I live in the only arab country that has legally forbidden polygamy 50 years ago, but I really think we can get over these old traditions everywhere else. It isn’t a religious obligation to have 4 wives after all!
    I don’t need more examples, I see you aren’t attacking and I’m just answering your arguments, but I had this kind of conversation many many times, so I know what you are referring to, and , again, the most important for me, and what every muslim should do, is to try to get the real intention behind every rule, the real spirit behind religious texts. It’s the only way to understand them well and adapt ourselves to our time.

     
  10. Omar ( Jordan )
    believe me Nadia, I’ve had this kind of conversation for as long as I can remember, the bottom line is, in so many cases you can’t just forget the verse/hadith/command and simply create your own interpretation, Koran isn’t always complex, especially in what matters women, you simply can’t just get pass polygamy when it was practiced by practically every companion of the prophet and was clearly allowed in it, sex-slaves, or the whole male language that easily! This is not my theory, the Koran says so, in another dozen verse you have threats and promises of torture for those who “de-legitimize” something God already allowed (e.g. polygamy), or about those who try to create their own religion (man etta5ath denaho hawah!) in what ever way it suits them. Even if that was allowed, even if you don’t take hadiths seriously, you still have a lot to answer, Islam is a religion from God, and as conceived, it carries all the justice in its basic teachings, putting that in mind, you have to answer small questions like what justice is in allowing one man to have 13, 4, 3, or even 2 wives, as long as you argue that Islam is a divine religion, you have to answer why sex-slaves were ever allowed, was it 1400 years or 14000 years ago, it still something from God.
    you cite Tunisia and the banning of polygamy as a sign of modern interpretation of Islam, but that isn’t even remotely the case, no Muslim Imam will allow this to happen, not to add the fact that it wasn’t a move to modernize Islam as it was to erase it, it wasn’t exactly the Muslim Brotherhood who rules in Tunisia!
    As I said, if you ask me, I’m all for a whole rehabilitation, but you just can’t bash those who read tons of scripts that somehow legitimize everything they do, give them divine rights in crystal clear language, and describe them as “acting against Islam”, that’s the whole point of my thread.


  11. Umar Farooq ( Pakistan )
    Omar
    Firstly, there is no ‘Al’ in my name. However, I can see your emphasis.
    If it is agreed that Quran is a book from God then whatever is written in it has to be taken at face value. Whether it is justice from our end or not, whether our intelligence comprehends or not, it seriously does not matter.
    If there was a doubt in Quran being the word from God or in Muhammad being the prophet, then we could bring in the values we think are better than what is taught by Islam. If neither of these are debatable then the question of flagging them as biased does not rise as well.


  12. Nadia ( Tunisia )
    Omar
    I also had this conversation for as long as I can remember. First of all, I’m not telling you that we should “forget” the lines and “create” our own interpretation. An interpretation is never created from nothing, It’s a way of reading the text keeping in mind the circumstances and conditions. I’m saying that we should be re-interpreting it continuously. It’s different from what you are saying.
    Now if you talk about polygamy, you cannot forget that before Quran, polygamy was allowed on a large number, and was limited then , so the direction taken by Quran was to set limitations and conditions to it. That’s why it’s important to remember the “1400 years ago” thing, and see behind the explicit rule what was the aim of the lines. Now you can have a different interpretation of the lines, and that’s all about it, different interpretations may existe and should exist. It’s not about explaining the grammar of the sentences, it’s about the relation between the text and the context.
    Now about the law in Tunisia, my country is always facing accusations from other muslim countries and religious authorities because of the law, not only polygamy. And I’m sorry to inform you that we DO have muslim imams here, and a lot of muslim intellectuals working on these subjects (not only tunisian) agree about our laws and find them modern though still respecting the religion, and even if you have a different opinion about that, it doesn’t allow you to say we are not muslim or we are not respecting islam, it’s just an opinion. You have the right to criticize the method, a lot of people do, and it’s totally acceptable, but to say that this was a move to eradicate islam is not true, and we still are muslims even if we have a different way to live with it. And yes it’s not the “muslim brotherhood” who rules in tunisia … thank god!!
    I think the “orthodox” method is harmful because, for me, the scripts do not legitimize everything, they legimitize what you want them to legimize, again, It’s not about the meaning of sentences, which can be clear as you said, it’s about contextualizing it. And you cannot have a look at 1400-old traditions and judge them with your 21st century guy eyes, it’s the same. The complexity comes from the conditions. the quran is supposed to be a spiritual source in the first place, and interpreting it, adapting it is not the same as eradicating it. Of course we need a rehabilitation to give up old interpretations and try to work on it again.
    You know what ? sometimes when you read old analysis and studies from centuries ago by muslim intellectuals and philosophers, you can find in them much more progressive ideas than what is taught today about islam, so if it was possible back then to discuss the subject, why is it so difficult to try now ? That’s the real problem we should be thinking about.


  13. Mohammed Moosa
    Dear Nadia,
    we are muslims and we obey islam .
    this is with regards to your article regarding the polygamy
    islam permits men to have 4 wifes ,this is not according to our wishes that we do what we like and disobey what we dont like.and that now the modern science can analyse it ,do u know nadia the reason for growth of prostitution
    now the modern science says that when one male child is born 4 female childs are born ,the birth rate according to science is 1:4 . when one male marries one female where should our three female sisters go, due to lack of men the women has no other choice so in a sence choose bad profession ,polluting the whole society since they dont get marry ,i ask that what problem is there when a person has 4 wifes and gives equal rights to all,its ur opinion to get marry to a person legally who is already married or go illegal with prostituion.
    and women get more freedom here in saudi arabia that in rest world.
    and one more thing that freedom dosent lie in exposing but in hiding .


  14. Esra'a
    and women get more freedom here in saudi arabia that in rest world.
    Please tell me you’re being sarcastic! This is painfully untrue. Half of my family are Saudi and are living in Saudi, I cannot begin to describe their struggles as women. My friend, you cannot speak for other women when you are a man with all the rights that you could ask for in Saudi Arabia.


  15. Jina ( Web Surgeon )
    and that now the modern science can analyse it ,do u know nadia the reason for growth of prostitution
    now the modern science says that when one male child is born 4 female childs are born ,the birth rate according to science is 1:4 .
    You got to be kidding me right? The ratio is almost 1:1 and it’s been like this since the dawn of time. Stop making up crap.


  16. Mohammed Moosa
    Dear Esra,
    i even live in saudi arabia and i see here life of women very much free without any restrictions.
    what sought of freedom you want for women here in saudi arabia, women can freely ride horses and bikes and enjoy partying at the beaches . is it the freedom that goes out of rules of islam ,islam doest allow intermingling of sexes.
    this is what is practiced in saudi arabia.
    i really like the life of saudi arabia,u know in asian countries women arent so free to like here in saudi arabia.
    if a women alone in some countries surely she be insecured but here we guarentee that no one will have dare to look at the women even if she is alone .


  17. Mohammed Moosa
    Dear Jina
    please check the world sensex and birth rate .
    it is the fact which the modern science is now accepting which was told to us 1400 years.
    are there any measures or ways to stop the evils which damages the atmosphere ,there is no way but islam.


  18. Esra'a
    Salam Mohammed,
    Life is nowhere near perfect for women in Saudi Arabia. As a woman who visits Saudi very often, it is the worst place for me to be. Intellectually sheltered and very restricting. It’s not free at all.
    There are in fact restrictions. How can you claim that women are living there without any restrictions when there is schools for different genders and also lack of rights within family law (divorce, custody of children, etc) and also lack basic rights like driving or gender discrimination with employment? You can’t ignore these aspects.
    Just because many women grew to be accepting of this doesn’t mean that they actually approve of it and consider it just and “free.” It’s not free and they lack many opportunities.


  19. Mohammed Moosa
    Dear esra
    can i know what type of freedom u wish from the parents or from the society so that i suggest it.
    u know esra the women here enjoy life very well rather that in europe and america where women are ill treated .
    here islamic values gave women all the right .
    there in europe and america even after working where the women is harressed mentally and physically she dont have good life even at home,here in saudi arabia with out working the women enjoy a better life , the women here are more wealthy with out working hard and enjoying good life


  20. Mohammed Moosa
    why schools are different for genders in saudi arabia.
    u know islam says that these sexes should be seperated which is well practiced in saudi arabia.
    it is the law made by allmighty allah to segregate sexes ,who are we to go against this law.there are worst effects of intermingling of sexes , if you read the crime rate and the rate of molestation of women you can say that this law is perfect.
    practical speaking when i come near a women i cannot control my selves ,this is the human nature which allmighty knows and made such rules


  21. Esra'a
    I want the freedom to make choices. I want to be given the choice to do simple things like work and drive independently. I don’t want to be owned by a man. If my husband abuses me and I would like to keep my children, I would like to have that choice. If I graduate from university and I want a perfectly reasonable job at a business corporation, I want to be given opportunities without facing discrimination and I want to lead a normal, free life where my input and values matter.
    My sister is married to a Saudi and is living in Saudi Arabia. She has none of these rights. She is lacking basic opportunities and it’s making her miserable. When I go there, many girls always tell me that they are so ambitious yet lack the opportunities to act upon such ambitions.
    Mohammed, it is untrue what you say about not controlling yourself! Look at the rest of the world, including in neighboring Arab countries like Bahrain where you see more women and men now mixed in Universities and schools, you mean to tell me that men are too weak and cannot control their sexual desires? Of course they can, this sexual repression in places like Saudi is actually what leads to things like rape and sexual abuse, which proves my points in the main article I wrote here. Rape happens very often in that country, and sex is the biggest unspoken taboo.
    It’s a false claim that you cannot control yourself, that is unhealthy and not natural at all. Furthermore, it is perverted, and very disturbing.
    it is the law made by allmighty allah to segregate sexes
    Mohammed it’s very haram for you to say this! Where in the Quran does God say that men and women must be segregated? This is based on a Hadith, which is NOT words or laws by Allah! This was a cultural thing which the Prophet Mohammed advised and suggested ONLY in times of prayers, not in life in general. This means it is not supported by Islam that men and women should be separate. This is a false claim.


  22. Jina ( Web Surgeon )
    Dear Jina
    please check the world sensex and birth rate .
    I did and I didn’t find anything to backup your claim and when you make a claim, you have to back it up with exact source. You don’t tell people to go look for it.
    1.05 males/female This is the real ratio.
    the women here are more wealthy with out working hard and enjoying good life
    Good life is not about not working hard or enjoying life. Good life is doing what you choose to do. These women don’t have that choice. Yes some may choose to do what you said, but it doesn’t go for all of them.
    I made a lot of mistakes in my life that harmed me personally. I also made a lot of good choices that benefited me and the other around me. They were all my choices. I accept responsibilities for the mistakes I made and take credit for the good things I did. This is what the women and even men in the Muslim world should have. The ability to choose their own path. If they sin, it’s between them and their creator, not them and their society or them and you. You are not god, and society is not god. You have nothing to say in this matter. God did not make your or the society his representative.
    practical speaking when i come near a women i cannot control my selves ,this is the human nature which allmighty knows and made such rules
    Humans can control themselves, when I am surrounded by women, I don’t have the urge to rape one or two. So your almighty is wrong and me and the millions of men world over are the proof that your god is wrong or maybe you are wrong and using god to justify your own sick mind.


  23. Mohammed Moosa
    Dear Esra,
    I REALLY ACCEPT IT THAT THE WOMEN CANNOT DRIVE HERE , YOU CAN MAKE CHOICES AS YOU WISH ,ARE THERE ANY RESTRICTIONS TO DO WORK ,MANY WOMEN STARTED WORKING HERE .AND FOR YOUR KNOWLEDGE THAT MANY COMPANIES ARE PROVIDING JOBS HERE BUT THERE ARE DIVIDERS FOR MEN AND WOMEN ,THERE ARE SEPERATE DEPARTMENTS FOR MEN AND WOMEN.
    DEAR ESRA WHY IT IS SAID IN QURAN THAT WOMEN SHOULD COVER,
    and regarding the SEGREGATION or hijab have read this below
    The verse of Surah Noor, says:
    “ And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands’ fathers, their sons…”
    [Al-Qur’an 24:31]
    3. Six criteria for Hijab.
    According to Qur’an and Sunnah there are basically six criteria for observing hijab:
    1.Extent: The first criterion is the extent of the body that should be covered. This is different for men and women. The extent of covering obligatory on the male is to cover the body at least from the navel to the knees. For women, the extent of covering obligatory is to cover the complete body except the face and the hands upto the wrist. If they wish to, they can cover even these parts of the body. Some scholars of Islam insist that the face and the hands are part of the obligatory extent of ‘hijab’.
    All the remaining five criteria are the same for men and women.
    2.The clothes worn should be loose and should not reveal the figure.
    3.The clothes worn should not be transparent such that one can see through them.
    4.The clothes worn should not be so glamorous as to attract the opposite sex.
    5.The clothes worn should not resemble that of the opposite sex.
    6.The clothes worn should not resemble that of the unbelievers i.e. they should not wear clothes that are specifically identities or symbols of the unbelievers’ religions.


  24. Esra'a
    Mohammed,
    I REALLY ACCEPT IT THAT THE WOMEN CANNOT DRIVE HERE
    You say this as a man with the right to drive. Many women do not accept it. Don’t speak for them when you have the rights that they lack, you have no idea what it feels like to be deprived from such freedoms.
    “ And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands’ fathers, their sons…”
    [Al-Qur’an 24:31]
    Over their BOSOMS doesn’t mean over their heads. Bosoms means the chest area.
    That means they basically can’t walk around naked, they can’t reveal their breasts. It says nothing about gender segregation! You are misinterpreting the Quran by assuming that this means that they have to be seperate – this means you don’t show off your body (and I mean REALLY revealing your body) to no one except those close to you. This is to avoid pre-marital sex and indecent sexual activities before marriage.
    So there is no proof in the Quran that they have to be separated. It just says that women have to dress decently and responsibly.


  25. Mohammed Moosa
    Dear Esra,
    I dont that that man can drive and women cannot since i know that islamhas given equal rights to men and women ,read this below
    Verse No. 228, Chapter 2, Surah Baqarah, as translated by Abdullah Yusuf Ali, whose work is supposed to be the most standard work, reads as under….
    ‘And Women shall have rights, similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable, but men have a degree of advantage over them’.
    and regarding hijab
    ” And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands’ fathers, their sons…”
    does it mean that they should mingled other than any males who is neither their father,husband and son, can u please answer me that does it mean that they can move freely with any males other than these categories
    Regards


  26. Mohammed Moosa
    Dear Esra,
    The Qur’an says that Hijab has been prescribed for the women so that they are recognized as modest women and this will also prevent them from being molested.
    Example of twin sisters
    Suppose two sisters who are twins, and who are equally beautiful, walk down the street. One of them is attired in the Islamic hijab i.e. the complete body is covered, except for the face and the hands up to the wrists. The other sister is wearing western clothes, a mini skirt or shorts. Just around the corner there is a hooligan or ruffian who is waiting for a catch, to tease a girl. Whom will he tease? The girl wearing the Islamic Hijab or the girl wearing the skirt or the mini? Naturally he will tease the girl wearing the skirt or the mini. Such dresses are an indirect invitation to the opposite sex for teasing and molestation. The Qur’an rightly says that hijab prevents women from being molested.
    Western society falsely claims to have uplifted women
    Western talk of women’s liberalization is nothing but a disguised form of exploitation of her body, degradation of her soul, and deprivation of her honour. Western society claims to have ‘uplifted’ women. On the contrary it has actually degraded them to the status of concubines, mistresses and society butterflies who are mere tools in the hands of pleasure seekers and sex marketeers, hidden behind the colourful screen of ‘art’ and ‘culture’.
    USA has one of the highest rates of rape
    United States of America is supposed to be one of the most advanced countries of the world. It also has one of the highest rates of rape in any country in the world. According to a FBI report, in the year 1990, every day on an average 1756 cases of rape were committed in U.S.A alone. Later another report said that on an average everyday 1900 cases of rapes are committed in USA. The year was not mentioned. May be it was 1992 or 1993. May be the Americans got ‘bolder’ in the following years.
    can u analyse the fact now why these crimes arent commited in islamic country like saudi arabia,
    i wish the freedom lovers really leave this country and let the world go any where and let saudi arabia be free from these crimes
    because of these restrictions i beleive it is crimefree


  27. Rasha Abdullah
    It is true that women here in Saudi have minimal rights, I am not talking about driving although it is important, more importantly, a woman can’t study or work here unless it is ok’d by her legal guardian (father, husband, bro…. etc) If her guardian wanted to stop her from working.. he can. A woman can’t travel out side Saudi without a paper from her guardian even if she was 70 years old, a woman can’t rent an apartment here, she can’t stay in a hotel if traveling within the country without an approved signed paper from her guardian! she can’t do alot of businesses unless there is a man taking care of it for her. until recently.. a woman could not do a medical surgical procedure even if it was an emergency without her guardian’s signature. imagne that?
    so.. what rights do we have here exactly?? remind me again.


  28. Esra'a
    Thank you for that Rasha. I hope more men there wake up to this reality and join in the struggle to help women gain basic human rights.


  29. Rasha Abdullah
    I need to add a point about segrigation here in Saudi, ofcourse as we all know there is almost a 100% segrigation between men and women here in schools, universities, work, in the family especially when cousins or other male relatives are around.. etc. all this has caused a reaction here because the relationship between men and women is abnormal.. there is a high rate of homosexuality between young men and women alike.. there is a high rate of sexual abuse to both boys and girls/ women. it is shocking! I even worry about taking boys to schools these days. The society here finds it very hard let alone salve these issues.. but to even discuss them. the society here refuses acknowledging all the social sickness that we have.. I can go on and on about soo many things.
    This country is affraid of change because people here have rigid minds and thoughts. how do we treat a disease unless we diagnose it from the begining and set a treatment plan..
    Alot of women here don’t want things to change.. they are affraid of change .. affraid of making their voices heard.. because they might end up being sacrificed for their believes. alot would not risk loosing their place in society. some women are happy and content because they are ignorant and were taught and spoon fed certain ideas.
    Sadly.. we have a very long way to go.. it’s a man’s world.. if a woman is not supported by a man (guardian) she will end up in a rut!
    I read an article a while ago that shocked me.. as we know that after doing time in prison the prisoner is freed.. well.. it turns out that if the family of women prisoners didn’t want them back and are shamed by these women who did their full time, they stay in prison because there is no where else to go!! no family to take them back.. no society to accept them.. so they can stay in prison for life for a minor crime!
    I do hope things change for the better here for both sexes women and men.. to have a healthy enviroment for our children if not of this generation.. the next.


  30. Mohammed Moosa
    Dear Rasha,
    this is to make to your notice that all the five fingers arent the same and that we cannot point all with the same image as the bad one.
    i can beleive that there are some evils going on behind the curtains and which is not openly practiced but i surely say that all the evils are practiced in rest of the world openly ,since us gave the legal permission for gay marriages and there are many countries that permits homosexual .
    this is not the case here in saudi arabia.
    the country of peace which spreads peace and harmony to the world.
    and that i surely say that the majority are goodones who are practicing islam well and giving all the rights to women as taught by islam.
    but rest of the majority are evils practicing evils.
    The women enjoy a better life here in saudi arabia than the rest of the world.
    practically speaking the womens rights is just and propaganda in the western world but they are the one molest and harras women which is not done here.


  31. Esra'a
    Mohammed, how can you be so sure that it doesn’t happen in Saudi? You should realize that most of it goes unreported. Sexual crimes do happen in Saudi – even I have been harassed during a brief visit there. And awful things happen by Saudis in Bahrain, where women are chased and sexually harassed. Sorry to say this, but Saudi men are not exactly the best behaved men in the Arab world. It is a generalization, but one that I have due to my personal experiences in Saudi and also by encounters with Saudi men in Bahrain.
    Women’s rights is not propaganda… it is something promoted and justified in the Quran.


  32. Mohammed Moosa
    Esra ,i surely say this since i see the crimesensex ,the rate of sexual crime and harrasment towards women and the crimerate is high in the western countries ,in years we do not see any of such here in saudi arabia, i think we cannot compare Bahrain in any way with saudi arabia since every thing is open there ,people from here go there at the weekends since here there are no sources for their pleasure and enjoyment, here i didnt saw any case or heard that a women is chased or that anyone just watching closely to women.
    the restpect to women is high compared to other countries may be due to the punishment given to men for harrasment or sexual crimes or may be due to restrictions to men and women. i dont mean to say that the womens right is propaganda but i surely say that the westerners are doing propaganda but arent giving the women rights. i really accept that Islam teaches rights towards women alot . how can we didobey islam.
    i suggest you avoid rumors of westernes and analyse what is good and what is bad and follow the right track.
    i again say that Islam has uplifted women, and the western culture has degraded women just doing propaganda and making a sense of hatred towards islam and islamic country.
    u have your own will to follow what u wish, but i suggest that you really go through world crimesensex that make report to yourselves.
    Regards


  33. Mohammed Moosa
    Dear All,
    this is mohammed Moosa from Jeddah ,Saudi arabia
    i have great pleasure to answer your queries regarding misconseption towards Islam and Islamic countries .
    you can mail me on m1sa2003@yahoo.com,gmail.com,hotmail.com
    Regards


  34. rich
    I live in Saudi and am not Muslim, I am *******. It is not till you are here and get to know the place that you see the secret society which exists.
    Saudi chicks generally would jump at the chance to live like they do in UAE


  35. Mohammed Moosa
    hello Rich,
    i do not comply totally with your views.
    you cannot blame all if some are spoiled .
    every where in the world there are good and bad.
    but majority are good here .
    Regards,
    Mohammed Moosa


  36. Alana
    dear all,
    i have lived in saudi arabia since i was born but then left at the age of 14. When i come back to visit this country seems much more messed up…people taking drugs and many other things. I think if the country was an open country less drugs and less abuses would happen…because people would know how to react and would finally listen to women.


  37. lamer
    Well thought out, Alana. Now why do you think it would be worthwile listening to women?
    Who is raising the boys in this country and how are they raised?
    And I am not sure about the word ‘finally’ in your last sentence. I think the goal is for us all to really LISTEN to each other (not in the frame of mind of little kids who fear authority, and not like men PROUD to be men — although the holy books teach humility and care) but as ethical human beings. We need to listen with care and empathy and learn fomr one another regardless of gender, race etc.
    I think we should START here with women (with men listening more to women’s voices), and not necessarily END with listening to women. Because in the end, we have to learn to listen (understand better) whomever is different than us so we can prevent and deal with eventual problems in a CAREFUL, not CAREFREE way.
    It happens that this ‘us’ here is men. And they are NOT listening to women’s voices and to their needs. Some did not even listen to their mothers when they were kids because they identified so much with the father who wouldn’t listen to his wife and treated women as inferior!
    Women who have their rights recognized in all areas also know better how to CARE for others, both by nature (maternity is something that guys don’t experience but can participate in) and by nurture (education).
    It is imperative that it is started with women here and that it progresses towards acknowledging ‘difference’ within the community and then difference in general to reach perhaps a democratic Muslim society or even, a democratic society with a majority of Muslims. No one will take over Mecca and Medina. Those are holy places, just as other holy places in the world, perhaps more holy because they belong to you (whomever that you may be). How does that sound? Threatening to anyone or anything ?


  38. lamer
    Guys,
    There is a possibility that what I said is too progressive. But if we are well grounded, it shouldn’t be. I am only saying all that because I see great potential in this country and because I am a pacifist. I abhore war and abuse of any kind. If I could — which I can’t because in the end I am just a woman :) – I would wash the whole world of any racist, abusive and mysoginistic thought. And of pride. We need INTEGRITY, not pride.


  39. lamer
    And to go back to Mohammed’s earlier comment, if I may, as a total outsider who happens to live here. He said: “The Qur’an says that Hijab has been prescribed for the women so that they are recognized as modest women and this will also prevent them from being molested.”
    What does hijab mean? Enlighten me.
    And also, I agree with idea that women shouldn’t look for trouble. And that is something women learn (or remember) very easily when everybody around them treat them with respect for who they are as human beings, and not in a judgemental way. It all starts with the gaze of the other (in this case, men) on us. Being a woman and being good should and can be something effortless and natural. If you believe that people are born ‘good’, that is. I wonder what the Quran says on this one.


  40. Rasha ( Saudi Arabia )
    lamer, you said
    I abhore war and abuse of any kind. If I could — which I can’t because in the end I am just a woman :) I would wash the whole world of any racist, abusive and mysoginistic thought. And of pride. We need INTEGRITY, not pride.
    that sentence has been ringing in my head.. I am just a woman. Did you mean.. not as good as a man? not as powerful as a man?
    I know that even in the West women have not reached positions in politics like men have, but don’t you think you just categorized women as being less than men? we are different than men but I don’t see us less, actually I see women and men complementing each other.. we need each other in this twisted life.. if that makes any sense.
    You asked what hijab meant.. it means cover. you can use it in many different phrases such as cover your eyes, can be a wall or a curtain that covers something..
    Islam believes we are born pure and good, it is the environment and the people around us that play a big role in influencing our behavior and believes.


  41. Mohammed Moosa
    Dear Lamer,
    this is regarding the hijab you asked
    Surah Nur, Ch. 24, Verse No. 31, says… ‘Say to the believing woman, that she should lower her gaze and guard her modesty and display not her beauty, except what is that necessary of, and to draw a head covering over her bosom, except in front of her father, her son, her husband’, and a big list of ‘Na-Mahram’, the close relatives which she can marry is given, and but natural, in front of the chaste women – Besides these, she should maintain the Hijab. The criteria for Hijab in Islam, can be found in the Qur’an, and the Sahih Hadith. There are six criteria – 1st is extent, which is the only difference between a man and a woman. For the man, he has to be covered from the naval to the knee. For the woman, her complete body should be covered – the only part that can be seen, should not be seen, is the face and the hands up to the wrist. If she wishes to cover them, she is most welcome, but it is not compulsory that she should cover it – Otherwise the full body should be covered. The only part that can been seen… not should not be seen, is the wrist, face and the hands, up to the wrist. This is the only criteria which differs, between the man and the woman. The second criteria is that, the clothes she wears, should not be so tight, that it reveals the figure. The clothes she wears… third point – it should not be so transparent, so that you can see through. And the fourth point – she should not wear glamorous clothes, or he should not wear glamorous clothes, which attracts the opposite sex. The fifth point is that a person should not wear cloth, which resembles that of the opposite sex – like you find men wearing earnings. If you wear one earring, it signifies something else – if you wear two earrings, it signifies something else. It is prohibited in Islam. And the last criteria is, you should not wear clothes which… that resemble of an unbeliever. These are the six basic criteria of Hijab.
    hope you understand what the hijab is


  42. lamer
    Maybe other (more) Muslim women like Rasha can discuss the Quran and the meaning of certain words, of all words for that matter with men like Mohammed. I can’t, I’m just trying to listen to both voices and to realize how flexible and “maternal” Rasha’s voice is and how inflexible and ‘just’ Mohammed’s voice is. I hear LIFE on one side and THE LAW on the other…


  43. lamer
    OH, and in case you get stuck in two parallel monologues, Mohammed, discuss the law, any law from the point of view of faireness and functionality WITH women.
    Listening to the sound of words in Arabic: LIFE, DIALOGUE, COEXISTENCE, DIFFERENCE…I’d love to hear (see) those words here. Can you please spell them (using English letters though)? Mohammed, how do you say these words in Arabic ? !


  44. Mohammed Moosa
    MR Lamer,
    these parallel voices have all only one end, and that neither flexibility and
    inflexiblilty at any where, so i suggest you not to misguide people.
    we are muslims and atlast we will obey to the rules sent by our god .
    and these words sounds good when spoken in arabic ,hope you should know arabic for that.


  45. Rasha ( Saudi Arabia )
    You have mentioned here Mohammed that Saudi Arabia has less crimes than other western countries! Do you have any statistics to back you up?
    You don’t hear of them my dear sir, because most victims are too frightened to talk. You think beaten up or raped women are going to stand infront of a judge pointing a finger at her brother, uncle or who ever.. yes shockingly most abusers are close family members. I have seen women abused and raped, I have seen a pregnant woman beaten up so badly by her husband her face was disfigured!
    I personally know several women who have been physically abused by their husbands (one had to go through multiple surgeries) these women are highly educated yet NONE reported the abuse out of FEAR. I know there are so many children raped. These incidents are NOT usually publicised because of our hush..hush society!
    So.. don’t think we are even close to being a perfect society as we all hope.. actually we are far from it. Women are treated inferiorly and that is a fact too.
    How about the homosexuality in this country.. do you think it is normal that the number is rising to such an alarming extent that both Jeddah then Riyadh are considered the capital gay cities of the middle east? Don’t you think segrigation has anything to do with it? The extreme life style we live in brings out some extreme behavior in my openion.


  46. lamer
    Oh, to answer you Rasha, when I said “I abhore war and abuse of any kind. If I could — which I can’t because in the end I am just a woman :) ” I intended it as a joke. I am just a human being, I meant, in fact even weaker than that, because I am a woman living in Saudi Arabia.


  47. Mohammed Moosa
    Dear Rasha,
    below is the report of world crimes , please identify saudi arabia any where
    Somewhere in America, a woman is raped every 2 minutes, according to the U.S. Department of Justice.
    In 1995, 354,670 women were the victims of a rape or sexual assault. (NationalCrime Victimization Survey. Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Department of Justice, 1996.)
    Over the last two years, more than 787,000 women were the victim of a rape or sexual assault. (National Crime Victimization Survey. Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S.Department of Justice, 1996.)
    The FBI estimates that 72 of every 100,000 females in the United States wereraped last year. (Federal Bureau of Investigation, Uniform Crime Statistics, 1996.)
    SILENT VICTIMS :
    One of the most startling aspects of sex crimes is how many go unreported. The most common reasons given by women for not reporting these crimes are the belief that it is a private or personal matter and the fear of reprisal from the assailant.
    Approximately 28% of victims are raped by husbands or boyfriends, 35% by acquaintances, and 5% by other relatives. (Violence against Women, Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Dept. of Justice, 1994)
    The FBI estimates that only 37% of all rapes are reported to the police. U.S. Justice Department statistics are even lower, with only 26% of all rapes or attempted rapes being reported to law enforcement officials.
    In 1994-1995, only 251,560 rapes and sexual assaults were reported to law enforcement officials — less than one in every three. (National Crime Victimization Survey, Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Department of Justice, 1996.)
    An overwhelming majority of rape service agencies believe that public education about rape, and expanded counseling and advocacy services for rape victims, would be effective in increasing the willingness of victims to report rapes to the police. (Rape in America, 1992, National Victim Center with Crime Victims Research and Treatment Center.)
    LIVING IN FEAR :
    According to the U.S. Department of Justice: (All statistics are taken from: Violenceagainst Women, Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Dept. of Justice, 1994.)
    One of every four rapes take place in a public area or in a parking garage.
    31% of female victims reported that the offender was a stranger.
    68% of rapes occur between the hours of 6 p.m. and 6 a.m.
    At least 45% of rapists were under the influence of alcohol or drugs.
    In 29% of rapes, the offender used a weapon.
    In 47% of rapes, the victim sustained injuries other than rape injuries.
    75% of female rape victims require medical care after the attack.
    NOT JUST A FAMILY MATTER :
    Family violence and abuse are among the most prevalent forms of interpersonal violence against women and young children — both boys and girls. The sexual abuse of a child should never be “just a family matter,” but many children are afraid to report an incident to the police because the abusers are too often a family friend or relative.
    Approximately one-third of all juvenile victims of sexual abuse cases are children younger than 6 years of age. (Violence and the Family, Report of the American Psychological Association Presidential Task Force on Violence and the Family, 1996.)
    According to the Justice Department, one in two rape victims are under age 18; one in six are under age 12. (Child Rape Victims, 1992. U.S. Department of Justice.)
    FACE OF AMERICA :
    About 81% of rape victims are white; 18% are black; 1% are of other races. (Violence against Women, Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Dept. of Justice, 1994.)
    About half of all rape victims are in the lowest third of income distribution; half are in the upper two-thirds. (Violence against Women, Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Dept. of Justice, 1994.)
    There were 71 forcible rapes per 100,000 females reported to United States law enforcement agencies in 1996. 2
    Data from the National Women’s Study, a longitudinal telephone survey of a national household probability sample of women at least 18 years of age, show 683,000 women forcibly raped each year and that 84% of rape victims did not report the offense to the police.3
    Using Uniform Crime Report data for 1994 and 1995, the Bureau of Justice Statistics found that of rape victims who reported the offense to law enforcement, about 40% were under the age of 18, and 15% were younger than 12.4
    In a national survey 27.7% of college women reported a sexual experience since the age of fourteen that met the legal definition of rape or attempted rape, and 7.7% of college men reported perpetrating aggressive behavior which met the legal definition of rape.5
    The National Crime Victimization Survey indicates that for 1992-1993, 92% of rapes were committed by known assailants.1 About half of all rapes and sexual assaults against women are committed by friends and acquaintances, and 26% are by intimate partners.1
    Risk factors for perpetrating sexual violence include: early sexual experience (both forced and voluntary),6 adherence by men to sex role stereotyping,7,8 negative attitudes of men towards women,6,9,,10,11,12, alcohol consumption,8,13 acceptance of rape myths by men.8,9,12,14,15
    Non-forceful verbal resistance and lack of resistance are associated with rape completion.1,6
    The adult pregnancy rate associated with rape is estimated to be 4.7%. This information, in conjunction with estimates based on the U.S. Census, suggest that there may be 32,101 annual rape-related pregnancies among American women over the age of 18.17
    Non-genital physical injuries occur in approximately 40% of completed rape cases.18 As many as 3% of all rape cases have non-genital injuries requiring overnight hospitalization.19
    Victims of rape often manifest long-term symptoms of chronic headaches,18,20fatigue20, sleep disturbance20, recurrent nausea,20 decreased appetite,21 eating disorders,22 menstrual pain,18 sexual dysfunction,23 and suicide attempts.21 In a longitudinal study, sexual assault was found to increase the odds of substance abuse by a factor of 2.5.24
    Estimates of the occurrence of sexually transmitted diseases resulting from rape range from 3.6% to 30%.18,22 HIV transmission risk rate from rape is estimated at 1 in 500,22,25 although a few probable cases have been documented in Sweden and Great Britain. 26,27
    Victims of marital or date rape are 11 times more likely to be clinically depressed, and 6 times more likely to experience social phobia than are non-victims. Psychological problems are still evident in cases as long as 15 years after the assault.28
    Fatalities occur in about 0.1% of all rape cases.29,30
    A study examining the use of health services over a five year period by female members of a health maintenance program found that the number of visits to physicians by rape victims increased 56% in the year following the crime, compared to a 2% utilization increase by non-victims.31
    The National Public Services Research Institute estimates the lifetime cost for each rape with physical injuries which occurred in 1987 to be $60,000.32 The Comfort Women : Japan’s Brutal Regime of Enforced Prostitution in the Second World War


  48. Mohammed Moosa
    Dear all,
    since it is a muslim country and that islamic laws are practiced here ,
    it is crime free and in 10 years these cases arent reported which are reported daily in western world . the media which is in hand of jews are spoiling the image of the islamic countries . just a case was taken to peak to spoil.
    dont you all have the look at the other side where saudi arabia is spreading the harmony and peace to the world .
    i live in jeddah and i even lived earlier in riyad , i didnt noticed and homosexulality openly ,may be some evils are practicing it behind the wall
    which is open in western world.
    Regards
    Mohammed Moosa


  49. lamer
    Get rid of men then! You guys are awful!
    Women do not go to wars and don’t send their children to wars. Women to not rape men. Women do not ban your rights to drive (to give just one hilarious example). Women feed you, care for you, listen to you, understand your needs and support your efforts to get better! Support women in return!
    We are your mothers, your sisters, your wives and your lovers! Support and understand us!


  50. lamer
    My previous message was a direct reply to Mohammed’s report of world crimes against women. And then, I saw the next Mohammed note trying to prove the point that the fact that women are fully covered in black and lack any rights here prevents them from being molested by men. You guys (men) MUST solve your problems first and leave us alone !!! I have two suggestions: 1) all women should leave Saudi Arabia and leave it to the men — they like it here. Without you they would be even safer. No lust, for sure. They would be all angels (or Saints in Christian vcersion) in the desert. 2) the world should be ruled by women — for a change — to see if it works out better.


  51. Mohammed Moosa
    Dear Lamer,
    we do not ban women , we support them.
    dont you think that how precious women are for us .
    we dont want them to earn money getting tired ,all the money in their hands with out work , i accept that only driving is ban for them since you know that
    it is ordered to us that women should have their guardian along with them when they travel , dont you think that we are their slave and we take them any where they wish ,as we are their drivers.
    there is no ban for women who are our mother ,sisters and wives but just the rules to safeguard our precious diamonds.
    Regards


  52. Mohammed Moosa
    Dear Lamer,
    can you suggest a world where the women are free and that they arent molested, search the wolrd there is no place where women are alone,
    both needs each others support ,why dont you plan to live together caring each other. you people arent wild to go to forest ,please do not take negative.
    the seperation will not solve this problem.
    Regards


  53. lamer
    Mohammed says: “there is no ban for women who are our mother ,sisters and wives but just the rules to safeguard our precious diamonds.”
    I know that’s what you think, Mohammed and that’s sweet. But women are not YOUR PRECIOUS DIAMONDS. Women ought to belong to themselves (and to G-d like any other human being, but that’s not something I will argue here). Women belong to themselves. If we want to turn ourselves into a gift, that’s another matter called ‘love’. Love cannot be enforced, nor imprisoned. Love is not forever either (as they say about diamonds when they advertise them) but love it’s a gift that can earned every day for a life-time. You have to be courageous for that. You guys are afraid of love, that’s all. You are just concerned with pride and continue to treat women as objects not as human beings endowed with a functional brain of their own.


  54. lamer
    Mohammed says : “can you suggest a world where the women are free and that they arent molested”
    No, Mohammed, I cannot. You made an excellent point. Men have this aggressive vein in them, that’s in theior genes and we can’t do much about it other than have clear laws against abuse, a lot of corrections (education) since childhood, a lot of talk about empathy and also, education by example (good male role models). That’s all we can do. And mothers have a huge say in that. We need stronger mothers with full rights recognized and we will have better sons who will not turned into rapers. And if they do, then women should be able to report (and whether they can do it is also based on education and talking early about these things — that gives you strength) and laws against abuse that are applied immediately!


  55. lamer
    I must add that I have lived in the West. In Canada for instance, men are very much aware about the power (the right I should say) women have to report any kind of harassment — be that verbal/psychological or physical. I have never felt safer than there. Of, course, I don’t walk by myself in isolated places at night. There are`always sick people out there, no matter what. For situations like these, I have a car. I lock the doors and I can drive home safely.


  56. lamer
    Mohammed, you said it perfectly: “there is no place where women are alone,
    both needs each others support ,why dont you plan to live together caring each other. you people arent wild to go to forest ,please do not take negative.
    the seperation will not solve this problem.”
    Yes, women need men and men need women equally. The separation (and the segregation) will not solve our problems. Well done!


  57. lamer
    One more: It would be probably best if women’s liberation goes hand in hand with a massive change in the educational system. You are at an advantage, you don’t have to repeat the mistakes that the West did. Women who wanted to join the work force and were so carrier driven that they neglcted their familie, or women who thought they can do it all alone (single mothers working to support three kids at home). You have to look at models that work best for you. Even in Europe now there is a trend called ” Slow Time” or something like that (I will look it up when I have more time). Companies are lessening their crazy schedules, they are providing daycare for children and breaks for mothers, other allow their emplyees to work from home. I think the WEst is learning from its mistakes. Let’s learn WITH them.


  58. lamer
    Mohammed, which media are you talking about when you say “the media which is in hand of jews are spoiling the image of the islamic countries”. Arab News? This site? Me? Can you be more precise ?


  59. Rasha ( Saudi Arabia )
    Mohammed, it is nice of you to educate us all about world crime (USA)
    As for me, I know that crime rates are high in the west, I was not discussing that, you are mixing things up. you like to think that Saudi Arabia is crimeless (or almost) I was making a point that there are NO STATISTICS proving we have low crime rates because of fear as I explained previously.
    I have attended a seminar here in Riyadh a while back about abused women/children (abuse can be physical or psychological) although what was reported in that seminar was NOT published but there is a very high increasing number of abused women and children. That is a fact. If I do get my hands on any published papers, I will tell you.
    I would love to think that my country is the best.. it is not and we have to smell the coffee dear Mohammed because it is our responsibility to make it better.
    and don’t tell me we are practicing the true Islam her.. in my openion we are practicing an extreme oppressed religion..
    About the homosexuals.. ask people around you.. it is interesting.
    lamer answered you on behalf of me too on the DIAMOND subject.


  60. Mohammed Moosa
    Dear all,
    this is with reference with the previous question from Lamer
    the media channels mostly all are sold in the hands of the jews .
    i dont want to disclose the names ,arabnews is the saudi news paper which i cannot comment on it since it gives the correct new.
    but the media is the thing which has spoiled the image of the muslims and islamic countries . even on the netsights you can see the abuses to the saudi arabia and the islamic laws. just search saudi arabia and you get millions of sight who says that women are mistrated here and crime .. many more
    who are the people who do that and what do they get maintiang these websights with our any profit , just to degrade islam and islamic rules.
    and dear rasha do not listen to rumors go to the root to find what exactly is right and wrong then you justify your comments.
    Regards,
    Mohammed Moosa


  61. lamer
    Mohammed, is this true?
    Saudi women columnists have recently spoken out against the oppression of women in their country. They denounced the Saudi preachers who spread negative notions about women in their sermons, criticized the countless limitations imposed on women in Saudi Arabia, and criticized the norms of Saudi society regarding the relationship between husband and wife.
    The following are excerpts from some of the articles:
    Preachers Spread Distorted Notions About Women
    Columnist Dr. Hasna Al-Quna’ir wrote in the Saudi daily Al-Riyadh: “Women are victims of [the preachers’] discourse… [which is intended to] condemn them and to prove them inferior [to men] in their piety and in their mental [abilities], [based on] a shameless distortion of the Prophet’s hadith…
    “Our TV channels are full of old and new preachers who convey their views directly to the public… Answering [viewers’ questions], they burst with accusations against members of the [female] sex. They excite the viewers’ emotions, entreating them to defend the virtues that the women corrupt…
    “An example is the answer given by one of the preachers [to a viewer who asked] about consulting with his wife and seeking her advice. [The preacher told him]: Do not consult with her, for she is emotional and her opinions are not valid… As evidence, he cited the Prophet’s hadith [which says]: ‘a tribe that nominates a woman [as leader] will not succeed’… Many preachers refuse to acknowledge that this hadith… was uttered in [specific] historical circumstances and in a particular context. The Prophet never meant it as a ruling that applies to all women, in every place and at all times…
    “Another preacher incited fathers, brothers and husbands against their daughters, sisters and wives, saying that a girl who is not beaten from an early age grows up to be a rebellious woman, difficult to control… This preacher [also] said that a woman who leaves her home without a veil is like [a woman] who goes out naked. He warned the Muslim women against wearing their abayas [a long gown] around their shoulders [instead of covering their heads as well], saying that this was the main reason that women are seduced and fall [into sin]… There was [a preacher] who warned women against shaking a man’s hand, saying that, according to one of the sheiks, a woman who shakes the hand of a man that is not her husband is guilty of… ‘adultery of the hand’…
    “The question is why some Muslims have [developed] this dehumanizing view of women, which does not respect [the women’s] humanity and honor. [This situation] stems from disregarding important factors… such as the historical circumstances and the specific context which formed the background for some of the religious laws and rules that [discriminate] against women. It also stems from the failure to distinguish between religious duties pertaining to rituals – which may be subject to absolute principles – and rules of behavior, which are controversial and are not subject to absolute laws, such as [the custom of] covering the face…
    “This is what led to these distorted views and to the [development] of rigid thought patterns regarding women which are not open to debate, and which are accepted by the followers and students [of these preachers] who endorse extremist views. The woman is the victim of this insular culture, and her only salvation would be a reorganization of the cultural structure of [our] entire society.”(1)
    Saudi Women Are Subject to Countless Prohibitions
    Saudi columnist Fatima Al-Faqih examined the question of discrimination against women, trying to assess it in a detailed and objective manner. She wrote in the Saudi daily Al-Watan:
    “Are Saudi women actually deprived [of their rights]? [They] are forbidden to drive, forbidden to travel without permission, forbidden to stay alone at a hotel without permission, forbidden to name their own children without [a man’s] consent… forbidden to take out a passport without permission… forbidden to leave their homes without permission… forbidden to take a job without permission… forbidden to change the color of their abayas, forbidden to go to school or to the university without permission… forbidden to purchase shares or to open to a [bank] account in their children’s name without permission.
    “[A woman] is not allowed to expose her face in some cities of the kingdom… [She] is not allowed to marry without permission… not allowed to stay married if [one of] her male relatives decides that her husband’s [tribal] lineage is inferior to hers… not allowed to sue for divorce without apologizing and paying a fine, not allowed to keep her children after the divorce, unless she gets permission… not allowed to hold a senior position in the private or public sectors, not allowed to vote or run for office… not allowed to travel alone with a chauffeur… not allowed to annoy her husband, and finally, a woman’s voice is considered [a form of] defilement, and she is forbidden to speak in public, so that her affairs will remain shrouded in secrecy.
    “A researcher [studying the limitations on women] would [probably] stop here, since the list is endless, and since he would conclude that whoever doubts the [injustice] inflicted on women either lacks awareness or derives some benefit from the discrimination. The damage [caused by this discrimination] is obvious, and the solution has been delayed, causing the problem to grow [even] more severe. There is need for immediate intervention in order to stop the deterioration.”(2)
    A Saudi Woman Lives in Constant Fear
    Columnist Dr. Maha Al-Hujailan criticized the norms of Saudi society, where a woman must live in constant fear that her husband may take another wife. In an Al-Watan article titled “the Intimidation of Women in Our Society,” she wrote: “Our culture rests on several basic values of family life, including the assumption that a women must live in constant fear of a man. This is especially true when she gets married, since she must constantly suffer mental and psychological anguish, fearing that her husband may take another wife.
    “According to [our] culture, [only] a woman who lives in this sort of fear and anguish properly fulfills her role as wife, while a women who feels assured that her husband will not take another wife comes to disdain her husband and her family life…This culture causes a women to feel mentally and psychologically inferior, like a quarrelsome child who must be constantly supervised, intimidated and punished into performing her duties.
    “In our culture, an exemplary, clever, and well-behaved woman is one who fulfils her duty out of the constant fear… that her husband will take another wife, since she is helpless [to prevent this]. [It is assumed that] if it weren’t for this overt or covert threat, the woman would not behave herself.
    “No doubt, it is [our] social reality that reinforced this notion and turned it into an accepted [norm] among men and women alike. Some women were raised in this culture, and [its norms] have become part of their mental and psychological baggage. Perhaps this [upbringing] has caused them to believe that a good man who respects them is nothing but a weak and unstable man… In their opinion, an ideal man is a violent one who humiliates his wife. This is the ideal upheld by the society in which they were raised.”(3)
    Endnotes:
    (1) Al-Riyadh (Saudi Arabia), February 18, 2007.
    (2) Al-Watan (Saudi Arabia), February
    Sorry, I have to check where (3) is coming from …


  62. Rasha (Saudi Arabia)
    I do not write this from listening to rumors as you have mentioned Mohammed, I listen to women and to many professionals dealing with abused women
    take a look at this, this was published in 2004
    http://www.wluml.org/english/newsfulltxt.shtml?cmd%5B157%5D=x-157-85798


  63. Mohammed Moosa
    This is with the reference of the articles published in the news papers.
    there are some inhumanities done to women which islam prohibits
    the abuses either physical or mental which are done to them are prohibited and should be stopped with the punishment to be given to the abusers
    but for some restriciton there are reasons which i would surely write.
    i really accept that there are more restrictions on women here
    where she is not allowed to drive ,go alone and take her own decisons,becoming the head
    this answer is for going alone and stayin alone
    Islam does not permit a woman to be alone with a ‘Na-Mehram’, with ‘a foreign male’… in closed doors . Islam does not allow such free, intermingling of sexes.
    this answer is for taking self decisons and becoming the head
    The heads of the State requires, that it should meet the common man. A lady, if she is head of the State, it will be difficult for her to meet the common man, and try and solve her problems.
    And science tells us that… ‘A woman during her menstrual period, she undergoes certain behavioral, mental and psychological changes, due to the release of the sex hormonestogene’. And these changes, will surely disturb her in making decisions, if she is the head of the State. Science also tells us that the women have more verbal and vocal skills as compared to the man. And a man has got more… ‘Spacialability’. ‘Spacialability’ means, ‘The Ability to imagine things, to imagine the future, to imagine the future project’. And ‘Spacialability’, is very important for the head of the State. A woman has be given an edge over the men, in verbal and vocal skills, which are required for her motherhood. A woman… she may get pregnant, and surely she may require a rest, for a few months. Who will look after the State, for those few months – She may have children … Her duty as a mother, is very important. And it is more practicable, for a man who can do both the duties … of a father, as well as head of a State, as compared to a woman … if she has to do the duty of a mother, as well as of head of the States. So I am more inclined to those scholars, who say that… ‘Women should not be made the head of State’. But that does not mean, that women cannot take part in making decisions As men. they have the right to vote and free to give their opinions.
    regarding marriage as it was published ,women are forced with out their will
    the women are free to choose their own spouses and cannot be forced to marry or divorce ,whe has her own will .
    but if this society is forcibley doing this ,it is un islamic activity which we all should boycought it.
    there are many things which are unislamic which we should abandon
    but we cannot say it taking the example of few unislamic persons taking the name of islamic act and doing these unislamic acts


  64. lamer
    Fair enough thoughts, Mohammed.
    When you said ‘Women should not be made the head of State’, you meant made by who?!. By the people through voting or by men?
    And you continued “But that does not mean, that women cannot take part in making decisions”. Yes, that’s right. I will give you the example of Jordan where the queen (starting with Queen Noor and continuing with Rania?) has very clear attributes and a very active role.
    “As men. they have the right to vote and are free to give their opinions.” I couldn’t agree with you more, Mohammed.
    “there are many things which are unislamic which we should abandon
    but we cannot say it taking the example of few unislamic persons taking the name of islamic act and doing these unislamic acts” That’s what the world waits to see — how you guys can find a fair solution from inside, with your people, for your people.


  65. Mohammed Moosa
    DEAR ALL ,
    THIS TOPIC I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE DISCUSS OPENLY
    MUSLIMS ARE FUNDAMENTALISTS AND TERRORISTS
    Why are most of the Muslims fundamentalists and terrorists?
    Answer:
    This question is often hurled at Muslims, either directly or indirectly, during any discussion on religion or world affairs. Muslim stereotypes are perpetuated in every form of the media accompanied by gross misinformation about Islam and Muslims. In fact, such misinformation and false propaganda often leads to discrimination and acts of violence against Muslims. A case in point is the anti-Muslim campaign in the American media following the Oklahoma bomb blast, where the press was quick to declare a ‘Middle Eastern conspiracy’ behind the attack. The culprit was later identified as a soldier from the American Armed Forces.
    Let us analyze this allegation of ‘fundamentalism’ and ‘terrorism’:
    1. Definition of the word ‘fundamentalist’
    A fundamentalist is a person who follows and adheres to the fundamentals of the doctrine or theory he is following. For a person to be a good doctor, he should know, follow, and practise the fundamentals of medicine. In other words, he should be a fundamentalist in the field of medicine. For a person to be a good mathematician, he should know, follow and practise the fundamentals of mathematics. He should be a fundamentalist in the field of mathematics. For a person to be a good scientist, he should know, follow and practise the fundamentals of science. He should be a fundamentalist in the field of science.
    2. Not all ‘fundamentalists’ are the same
    One cannot paint all fundamentalists with the same brush. One cannot categorize all fundamentalists as either good or bad. Such a categorization of any fund amentalist will depend upon the field or activity in which he is a fundamentalist. A fundamentalist robber or thief causes harm to society and is therefore undesirable. A fundamentalist doctor, on the other hand, benefits society and earns much respect.
    3. I am proud to be a Muslim fundamentalist
    I am a fundamentalist Muslim who, by the grace of Allah, knows, follows and strives to practise the fundamentals of Islam. A true Muslim does not shy away from being a fundamentalist. I am proud to be a fundamentalist Muslim because, I know that the fundamentals of Islam are beneficial to humanity and the whole world. There is not a single fundamental of Islam that causes harm or is against the interests of the human race as a whole. Many people harbour misconceptions about Islam and consider several teachings of Islam to be unfair or improper. This is due to insufficient and incorrect knowledge of Islam. If one critically analyzes the teachings of Islam with an open mind, one cannot escape the fact that Islam is full of benefits both at the individual and collective levels.
    4. Dictionary meaning of the word ‘fundamentalist’
    According to Webster’s dictionary ‘fundamentalism’ was a movement in American Protestanism that arose in the earlier part of the 20th century. It was a reaction to modernism, and stressed the infallibility of the Bible, not only in matters of faith and morals but also as a literal historical record. It stressed on belief in the Bible as the literal word of God. Thus fundamentalism was a word initially used for a group of Christians who believed that the Bible was the verbatim word of God without any errors and mistakes.
    According to the Oxford dictionary ‘fundamentalism’ means ‘strict maintenance of ancient or fundamental doctrines of any religion, especially Islam’.
    Today the moment a person uses the word fundamentalist he thinks of a Muslim who is a terrorist.
    5. Every Muslim should be a terrorist
    Every Muslim should be a terrorist. A terrorist is a person who causes terror. The moment a robber sees a policeman he is terrified. A policeman is a terrorist for the robber. Similarly every Muslim should be a terrorist for the antisocial elements of society, such as thieves, dacoits and rapists. Whenever such an anti-social element sees a Muslim, he should be terrified. It is true that the word ‘terrorist’ is generally used for a person who causes terror among the common people. But a true Muslim should only be a terrorist to selective people i.e. anti-social elements, and not to the common innocent people. In fact a Muslim should be a source of peace for innocent people.
    6. Different labels given to the same individual for the same action, i.e. ‘terrorist’ and ‘patriot’
    Before India achieved independence from British rule, some freedom fighters of India who did not subscribe to non-violence were labeled as terrorists by the British government. The same individuals have been lauded by Indians for the same activities and hailed as ‘patriots’. Thus two different labels have been given to the same people for the same set of actions. One is calling him a terrorist while the other is calling him a patriot. Those who believed that Britain had a right to rule over India called these people terrorists, while those who were of the view that Britain had no right to rule India called them patriots and freedom fighters.
    It is therefore important that before a person is judged, he is given a fair hearing. Both sides of the argument should be heard, the situation should be analyzed, and the reason and the intention of the person should be taken into account, and then the person can be judged accordingly.
    7. Islam means peace
    Islam is derived from the word ‘salaam’ which means peace. It is a religion of peace whose fundamentals teach its followers to maintain and promote peace throughout the world.
    Thus every Muslim should be a fundamentalist i.e. he should follow the fundamentals of the Religion of Peace: Islam. He should be a terrorist only towards the antisocial elements in order to promote peace and justice in the society.


  66. asim
    i think woman which live in saudi arabia are meet so hard life because the goverment did not alow for take hrer freedoom ? asim


  67. Karen Anderson
    Greetings to you,
    I write you this mail with an intention for you to be of immerse help to humanity. Please if this mail does not conform to you personal ethics and principles,find a place in your heart to forgive me for contacting you.
    My name is Mrs. Karen Grant Anderson, I am 59 years old. I am a dying woman who was diagnosed for cancer about 2 years ago, immediately after the death of my husband,who left to my benefit everything he worked for.I have been touched by God to donate from what I inherited from my late husband to the you for the good work of God rather than allow my relatives to use my husband hard earned funds UNGODLY. I want you to pray for me as you make use of this money.I have not really lived a good life and I hope this will help atone for my many sins thus I have asked God to forgive me and I believe he has because He is a merciful God.
    I will be going in for an Operation soonest and the doctors have said I will not make it through.So I decided to BEQUEATH/WILL the total sum of $5,500,000 (five million five Hundred Thousand Dollars) to you for the good work of the Lord, and also to help the motherless and less privilege and also for the assistance of the widows according to (JAMES 1:27 and 2:15-16).
    Presently, this money is still with a Finance Company .Please note that at the moment I cannot take any telephone calls right now due to the fact that my relatives are around me waiting for me to die and my health status has detoirated. I have adjusted my WILL and my Executor is aware of this changes.You and him will arrange for the transfer of the funds from the Finance Company to your humble self. please use the funds well and always extend the good work to others.
    Contact my Executor: SMITH KOSKIE Esq with this specified Email (smithchambers@pochta.ru) with the following:
    1-Your Full names,
    2-Your Contact Address,
    3-Your Active Telephone/Fax number.
    I want to tell you that nationality does have an impact in this transaction,As my lawyer know the procedure to follow by making you the he will need to register your name as the next of kin through the assistance of the British High Court here in London. This too have been arranged.
    You are to inform him that you are the person I informed him about, regarding article Three (3) of my WILL.He is aware of this and has promised to help you legally transfer the funds from the Finance Company to you.
    Note:Your utmost confidentiality in this matter until the task is accomplished as I don’t want anything that will Jeopardize my last wish. And Also I will be contacting with you by email as I don’t want my relations or anybody to know because they are always around me.
    Regards,
    Karen Anderson


  68. Mohammed Moosa
    Dear Anderson,
    this is not the first time i am acquinted with these
    type of games , i already got many cheaters on net who play and loot peoples money and here in saudi arabia even it happened and they are behind bars who play this tricks. i suggest you to stop these play
    or you may get the reward ,behind the bars.
    take care next time


  69. Anonymouse
    Dear readers …
    im not suprised to see that there are many people here who discuss things they cannot change …
    but isn’t that the nature of humans …?
    im not surprised to see that there are many people here who discuss things they have no relations to …
    but isn’t that the nature of humans …?
    im not surprised to see that there are many people here making up things simply to tarnish another person …
    but isn’t that the nature of humans …?
    im not surprised to see that there are many people here discuss rumors they hear and never confirm and also … believing them …
    but isn’t that the nature of humans …?
    im not surprised to see many people here who are arabs discussing arabic topics in a forgien language …
    but isn’t that the nature of arabs imposters …?
    im not surprised to see that there are many people here who talks about saudi arabia , the kingdom that brings prosperity to several nations … and yet some basic commoner who knows nothing about it attacks it …
    but isn’t that the nature of arabs imposters …?
    im not surprised to see many people here who are actually saudi and talk about thier own nation in lies and fomicry …
    but isn’t that the nature of westernizers imposters …?
    im not surprised to see many people here who talks ignorantly about a great nation … when actually … thier own nations hardly did anything to its people … or the outside world …
    but isn’t that the nature of arabs imposters …?
    at the end … i hope i made my point clear … and if after reading all of that and yet you seem ignorant about it … i’ll say it plainly …
    you are simply ignorant … a simply ignorant enraged woman starts something … fake as it seems … and yet … there’s still someone waiting to add more fuel to nothing but ashes … hoping it may light up …
    and as one great philosophest once said … ” enlightment … to those who seeks it … not to those who breach it ”
    au reviore


  70. Esra'a
    Anonymous, or shall I call you pseudo-intellect? Your disease is called “nationalism,” it’s common amongst many Arabs and it’s far from what you defined as “enlightenment.” It’s a destructive collective force cluelessly embraced by the masses.
    Keep shutting others up instead of intelligently refuting their arguments, and ultimately you have an entire “great” nation full of your ilk, contributing nothing of worth to intelligent discourse and their societies. Indeed we live in a sad world, but what can I say? At least some of us have the guts to keep trying.


  71. Anonymouse
    dear readers,
    in case someone mistakens my identity … im not an arab …
    and i do not wish to be if i will be the likes of these aggressive indiviuals …
    but simply … see what this ” great ” nation contributed to the ill-fortuned nations … from the far south-eastern islands … to the most scarred icicle reaches of the north-western glaciers …
    whenever there is someone in need … that nation aided them …
    but lets ask every attendant to this ” discussion ” … tell me one thing your nation did to the world …?
    i dare you name one thing … or else … exclude me from your discussion … or should i say … flesh-biting …
    au reviore


  72. Esra'a
    You must have a reading comprehension problem. That, or you never read the article to begin with.
    This is not a competition about whose nation is best. I am not interested in your or anybody else’s feelings about what nation should be considered too “great” for criticism. This is a discussion about sex and gender in Saudi Arabia. Not financial assistance and not your personal opinion about what nation we can and cannot criticize, so spare us, and come back when you actually have something relevant and of substance to say.
    Until then, don’t bother with the lousy generalizations and petty insults that have no relevance whatsoever to the topic at hand.


  73. Dawoud ( Bahrain/Japan )
    Doh!!! Swift kick in the nuts… nuts falling… nuts rolling… confused and weak at the same time… Wanna throw up… Oh! This is about women and sex in Saudi Arabia! Damn! I must learn to read and understand the topic and subject matter. Damn those infidels at Berlitz !


  74. Dawoud ( Bahrain/Japan )
    Why am I being moderated ?


  75. Esra'a
    The system requires frequent commenters to be moderated occasionally in an effort to combat spam. And since our spam filters are set on ultra high, there is a possibility that some comments be caught in the spam filters, which can only be recovered if we go through it, which we do every once in a while to make sure that legitimate comments are published.
    That’s just how WordPress works. It has nothing to do with moderators here being Nazis contrary to popular belief. I’d be damned if we had the time to moderate every single comment !


  76. Dawoud ( Bahrain/Japan )
    I C! I am on here waaaaaaaay too much then! Lol! Anyway, back to the subject matter… Yes, women are highly praised and a woman’s rights are highlighted in our Quran. My take on a husband being denied sex is that it’s the woman’s perogative, since Allah gives equal weight to the woman. In the heirarchy of things, sex isn’t the highest priority in the Quran, while a woman’s rights are, so one supercedes another. As for rape… rape is rape, regardless of marital status. As a man, I am quite comfortable by saying that men can be pigs. Maybe this man was unfaithful, having unprotected sex, has a disease or just an inconsiderate lover (all for himself and nothing for her) or maybe she was not in the mood for a variety of reasons.
    Men, for the most part, do not learn about the needs of women. I don’t think it is haram to learn about good sex practices. Hell, so many people have written so many “How-to” books on the subject that anybody would be foolish to not become educated on the subject matter. Even DVDs on how to be a better lover are out there. Most of all, men need to learn how to really listen and get in tune with their partner/wife/significant other. I must say this with a western point of view, since the west was where I grew up, and I know that the subject of even talking about sex may seem uncomfortable, especially here in the ME, but human curiosity is not in short supply and one can be discrete and proper in searching out the answers. So, if I were to say what is the most important skill set to learn right now… it would be great communication skills and emphasis on listening thoroughly before saying anything.


  77. Anonymouse
    sex and gender in Saudia Arabia you say …?
    are you Saudi …?
    have you lived there …?
    did you go through any traditional disaster there …?
    did you had to go to court there …?
    did you marry a saudi man …?
    did you work in saudia …?
    i can list as many questions as you need … to prove to you who is petty … and who is ignorant …
    and as far as im concerned … i believe this whole discussion is based on pure jealousy and petty from your side …
    need i say more …?
    or have i proved my point …?
    p.s. type anything you want … remember … the internet is made for those with too much spare time … when it comes to taking real action … cowel in fear and type all you want here … where you’re comfortable and cozy drinking your coffee and thinking you’re making a difference … quite convenient … for a human imposter …


  78. Esra'a
    Not that it’s any of your business, but yes, I have lived part of my life in Saudi, my father originates from there and my sister lives there with her family. Save the talk of “petty ignorance” for someone who actually values your opinion, much to your dismay, I do not.
    As for the other wasteful trash you’ve spilled, please go back to grade school and learn the basics about debate. You obviously know nothing of the subject matter to actively contribute. Shameful. Perhaps it’s time for you to hit the books.
    If you don’t have the brain cells required to hold a decent and relevant discussion, stop commenting here, and visit Barney.com for your social convenience. Thanks and good luck.


  79. Dawoud (Bahrain/Japan)
    au reviore
    … it’s au revoir. So much for your perfection.


  80. Murad
    the internet is made for those with too much spare time
    Explains why you’re here.
    You honestly thought you can publish that statement without someone pointing out the irony behind it? Really?
    The article in Arab News contains studies made by actual Saudis who live in Saudi. As I recall, you are not an Arab. What gives you the right to call others out on “ignorance” if they are actual Arabs who identify and act upon the problems in their societies?
    Read the article. What makes you think you know more than Saudi scholar Sheikh Al-Obaikan and Dr. Zain Al-Abidin ?


  81. Anonymouse
    and … calling what someone says trash … is a basic foundiation of debate … my what manners do we have …
    its laughable … how much someone denys what they read … when it actually gives them a purpose to live …
    here’s a bargain you’ll be happy to take on …
    if you respond … you’ll only prove me right by confirming thaat you’re lying about not caring for my opinion … and you actually wait by your monitor hoping to find my reply …
    if you do not respond … you’ll simply leave me in peace and i do not have to read anymore of nonsense … oh and one more thing … earlier in this discussion you stated you never lived in saudia and never hoped to … and now you’re saying you have …? are all your replys based on impulse and negativity …?
    and one more preciouse remark … if you’re arabs … and claming to be … why … and i am really wondering … why are we discussing an arab’s country issue … in a forgien language … not only to that nation … but to you arab imposters …?


  82. Esra'a
    if you respond … you’ll only prove me right by confirming thaat you’re lying about not caring for my opinion … and you actually wait by your monitor hoping to find my reply …
    No, I’m actually in the process of gouging my eyes out. Your comments are appalling, irrelevant, uninformed, irritating, and to top it all off you are trying to impress us with what seems like a poetic structure which you should probably replace with something more coherent.
    Why are you wasting time with us on the internet? Go party with the Al Sauds in the Great Nation and stop spamming us like a toad.
    if you’re arabs … and claming to be … why … and i am really wondering … why are we discussing an arab’s country issue … in a forgien language
    Are you seriously ill ?
    We are a multinational forum. It couldn’t be more obvious. We have everyone from Iranians, Israelis to Kurds. The common language here is not Arabic, it’s English, if you want to read our Arabic-language website you can go to Inter-Iman. But that’s not for people like you. It’s for people who are honest and open-minded, and willing to do something about their societal issues instead of justifying it on what we like to call THA GREAT INTARWEB.


  83. Dawoud (Bahrain/Japan)
    He/she/it doesn’t even speak Arabic, let alone write proper French.
    What makes you think you know more than Saudi scholar Sheikh Al-Obaikan and Dr. Zain Al-Abidin?
    He/she/it wouldn’t even qualify for a spelling bee, let alone a debate with subject matter experts Sheikh Al-Obaikan and Dr. Zain Al-Abidin. What’s with that incorrect poem structure and the “…”? Is the “…” a pause in between taking hits on the bong? Is it suppose to strike fear? All it (the “…”) has done is strike laughter.
    I am starting to think this is the same person who claimed to be half Saudi and Polish and threatened to hack the forum and everybody else.


  84. Dear
    Dear Esra ,
    i would like to know your email address or telephone number
    i want to have dialouge with you ,since i wanna know you better
    if you do not mind send it or email me on nwrera@yahoo.com
    waiting to hear you


  85. Dear
    please ya esra ,
    i was waiting to hear your voice
    can u please help me to reach you
    take care


  86. H K
    we tend to forget certain things if we get our divorce.. wut will happen to our kids? why don’t we think rationally about this issue? why men get custody of the children after the legal age? aren’t mother good enough to raise the children? don’t we all need our mothers even after we reach the age of 7 or 9?? how can we be sure that the kids will grow up to be non traumatized.. not psycholgically injured? isn’t it our responsibility to raise good calibers for the future society? the law in this regards is only based on what is called “ijtihad” it is not in the Quran.. it is not through a Hadith.. our children are our future.. many countries have awaken and have amended such laws.. all to the benefit of teh children.. all to the benefit of better civilized societies..


  87. bob
    men get custody of the children because men are guarenteed to be muslim in islamic marriages. since the bigotted islamic laws forbid women to marry non-muslims. so if you side w/ the man legally you are siding with the side guarenteed to be muslim.


  88. Esra'a
    men get custody of the children because men are guarenteed to be muslim in islamic marriages.
    This doesn’t make any sense.


  89. Danial
    bob, can you stop talking out of your ass? It’s clear that you really have no idea on what the hell you are talking about so it is best for you to keep your mouth shut.
    You can take the idiot out of the village but you can’t take the village out of the idiot, and you’re living proof of that.


  90. bob
    oh danial the islamist thug is back. all of what i said was true. muslim women can not marry non-muslims, muslim men CAN marry non-muslims. this logical bigotry even manifests itself in other ways. for example in egypt the “nobler religion” is considered to be the one the children by law have to follow and has been used in court cases to take children away from apostate divorce’s.
    but I accept your bully tactics and lack of knowledge and truth as proof of islamic bigotry that you wish to hide.


  91. Esra'a
    I hope you all take it easy. There’s no point in debate if it’s like this.


  92. Dear
    Esra there are many relations for men and women
    the most loveable is sex , i hope u know it
    leave every thing and go for that rest all u will forget after
    you get a perfect male
    take care
    nwrera


  93. Mohammed Moosa
    United States Crime Rates 1960 – 2006
    Forcible
    Aggravated
    Larceny- Vehicle
    Year Population Index Violent Property Murder Rape Robbery assault Burglary Theft Theft
    1960 179,323,175 3,384,200 288,460 3,095,700 9,110 17,190 107,840 154,320 912,100 1,855,400 328,200
    1961 182,992,000 3,488,000 289,390 3,198,600 8,740 17,220 106,670 156,760 949,600 1,913,000 336,000
    1962 185,771,000 3,752,200 301,510 3,450,700 8,530 17,550 110,860 164,570 994,300 2,089,600 366,800
    1963 188,483,000 4,109,500 316,970 3,792,500 8,640 17,650 116,470 174,210 1,086,400 2,297,800 408,300
    1964 191,141,000 4,564,600 364,220 4,200,400 9,360 21,420 130,390 203,050 1,213,200 2,514,400 472,800
    1965 193,526,000 4,739,400 387,390 4,352,000 9,960 23,410 138,690 215,330 1,282,500 2,572,600 496,900
    1966 195,576,000 5,223,500 430,180 4,793,300 11,040 25,820 157,990 235,330 1,410,100 2,822,000 561,200
    1967 197,457,000 5,903,400 499,930 5,403,500 12,240 27,620 202,910 257,160 1,632,100 3,111,600 659,800
    1968 199,399,000 6,720,200 595,010 6,125,200 13,800 31,670 262,840 286,700 1,858,900 3,482,700 783,600
    1969 201,385,000 7,410,900 661,870 6,749,000 14,760 37,170 298,850 311,090 1,981,900 3,888,600 878,500
    1970 203,235,298 8,098,000 738,820 7,359,200 16,000 37,990 349,860 334,970 2,205,000 4,225,800 928,400
    1971 206,212,000 8,588,200 816,500 7,771,700 17,780 42,260 387,700 368,760 2,399,300 4,424,200 948,200
    1972 208,230,000 8,248,800 834,900 7,413,900 18,670 46,850 376,290 393,090 2,375,500 4,151,200 887,200
    1973 209,851,000 8,718,100 875,910 7,842,200 19,640 51,400 384,220 420,650 2,565,500 4,347,900 928,800
    1974 211,392,000 10,253,400 974,720 9,278,700 20,710 55,400 442,400 456,210 3,039,200 5,262,500 977,100
    1975 213,124,000 11,292,400 1,039,710 10,252,700 20,510 56,090 470,500 492,620 3,265,300 5,977,700 1,009,600
    1976 214,659,000 11,349,700 1,004,210 10,345,500 18,780 57,080 427,810 500,530 3,108,700 6,270,800 966,000
    1977 216,332,000 10,984,500 1,029,580 9,955,000 19,120 63,500 412,610 534,350 3,071,500 5,905,700 977,700
    1978 218,059,000 11,209,000 1,085,550 10,123,400 19,560 67,610 426,930 571,460 3,128,300 5,991,000 1,004,100
    1979 220,099,000 12,249,500 1,208,030 11,041,500 21,460 76,390 480,700 629,480 3,327,700 6,601,000 1,112,800
    1980 225,349,264 13,408,300 1,344,520 12,063,700 23,040 82,990 565,840 672,650 3,795,200 7,136,900 1,131,700
    1981 229,146,000 13,423,800 1,361,820 12,061,900 22,520 82,500 592,910 663,900 3,779,700 7,194,400 1,087,800
    1982 231,534,000 12,974,400 1,322,390 11,652,000 21,010 78,770 553,130 669,480 3,447,100 7,142,500 1,062,400
    1983 233,981,000 12,108,600 1,258,090 10,850,500 19,310 78,920 506,570 653,290 3,129,900 6,712,800 1,007,900
    1984 236,158,000 11,881,800 1,273,280 10,608,500 18,690 84,230 485,010 685,350 2,984,400 6,591,900 1,032,200
    1985 238,740,000 12,431,400 1,328,800 11,102,600 18,980 88,670 497,870 723,250 3,073,300 6,926,400 1,102,900
    1986 240,132,887 13,211,869 1,489,169 11,722,700 20,613 91,459 542,775 834,322 3,241,410 7,257,153 1,224,137
    1987 242,282,918 13,508,700 1,483,999 12,024,700 20,096 91,110 517,704 855,088 3,236,184 7,499,900 1,288,674
    1988 245,807,000 13,923,100 1,566,220 12,356,900 20,680 92,490 542,970 910,090 3,218,100 7,705,900 1,432,900
    1989 248,239,000 14,251,400 1,646,040 12,605,400 21,500 94,500 578,330 951,710 3,168,200 7,872,400 1,564,800
    1990 248,709,873 14,475,600 1,820,130 12,655,500 23,440 102,560 639,270 1,054,860 3,073,900 7,945,700 1,635,900
    1991 252,177,000 14,872,900 1,911,770 12,961,100 24,700 106,590 687,730 1,092,740 3,157,200 8,142,200 1,661,700
    1992 255,082,000 14,438,200 1,932,270 12,505,900 23,760 109,060 672,480 1,126,970 2,979,900 7,915,200 1,610,800
    1993 257,908,000 14,144,800 1,926,020 12,218,800 24,530 106,010 659,870 1,135,610 2,834,800 7,820,900 1,563,100
    1994 260,341,000 13,989,500 1,857,670 12,131,900 23,330 102,220 618,950 1,113,180 2,712,800 7,879,800 1,539,300
    1995 262,755,000 13,862,700 1,798,790 12,063,900 21,610 97,470 580,510 1,099,210 2,593,800 7,997,700 1,472,400
    1996 265,228,572 13,493,863 1,688,540 11,805,300 19,650 96,250 535,590 1,037,050 2,506,400 7,904,700 1,394,200
    1997 267,637,000 13,194,571 1,634,770 11,558,175 18,208 96,153 498,534 1,023,201 2,460,526 7,743,760 1,354,189
    1998 270,296,000 12,475,634 1,531,044 10,944,590 16,914 93,103 446,625 974,402 2,329,950 7,373,886 1,240,754
    1999 272,690,813 11,634,378 1,426,044 10,208,334 15,522 89,411 409,371 911,740 2,100,739 6,955,520 1,152,075
    2000 281,421,906 11,608,072 1,425,486 10,182,586 15,586 90,178 408,016 911,706 2,050,992 6,971,590 1,160,002
    2001 285,317,559 11,876,669 1,439,480 10,437,480 16,037 90,863 423,5557 909,023 2,116,531 7,092,267 1,228,391
    2002 287,973,924 11,878,954 1,423,677 10,455,277 16,229 95,235 420,806 891,407 2,151,252 7,057,370 1,246,646
    2003 290,690,788 11,826,538 1,383,676 10,442,862 16,528 93,883 414,235 859,030 2,154,834 7,026,802 1,261,226
    2004 293,656,842 11,679,474 1,360,088 10,319,386 16,148 95,089 401,470 847,381 2,144,446 6,937,089 1,237,851
    2005 296,507,061 11,565,499 1,390,745 10,174,754 16,740 94,347 417,438 862,220 2,155,448 6,783,447 1,235,859
    2006 299,398,484 11,401,313 1,417,745 9,983,568 17,034 92,455 447,403 862,947 2,183,746 6,607,013 1,192,809


  94. Mohammed Moosa
    .The Crime Rate Is Increasing.
    The recent string of heinous crimes does not represent a sudden wave of crime in America. Violent crime actually has been steadily increasing since the 1960s (though violent crime rates did dip for a time during the early 1980s). But in addition to the steady increase of crime has been the changing nature of these crimes. For example, there has been a pronounced increase in the prevalence of stranger-on-stranger robberies and drive-by shootings.
    2. Teenagers Are Responsible for a Disproportionate Share of Violent Crime.
    The violent-crime rate seems to rise and fall in tandem with the number of teens in the population. But recently, teen violence has exploded (murder arrests of teens jumped 92 percent since 1985) during a period in which the teen population remained steady or declined.
    3.The Median Age of Criminals Is Dropping.
    The perception that criminals are getting younger is backed up by statistics. In 1982, 390 teens ages 13-15 were arrested for murder. A decade later, this total jumped to 740.
    4. A Majority of the Crimes Are Committed by Habitual Criminals.
    Criminologist Marvin Wolfgang compiled arrest records for males born and raised in Philadelphia (in 1945 and in 1958). He found that just 7 percent in each age group committed two-thirds of all violent crime. This included three-fourths of the rapes and robberies, and nearly all of the murders. They also found that this 7 percent had five or more arrests before the age of 18.
    5. Crime Does Pay: Most Criminals Are Not Caught or Convicted.
    Consider these statistics compiled by professor Morgan Reynolds (Texas A&M University) concerning burglary:
    500,000 burglaries take place each month
    250,000 of these are reported to the police
    35,000 arrests are made
    30,450 prosecutions take place
    24,060 are convicted
    6,010 are sent to prison; the rest paroled
    Of the 500,0000 burglaries, only 6,000 burglars went to jail! And if this 1 percent effectiveness ratio isn’t disturbing enough, professor Reynolds found that the average time served was only 13 months.
    How to Fight Crime
    1. Put More Police on the Street.
    The statistics from professor Reynolds illustrate the problem for burglary. Similar statistics exist for other major crimes including murder. Today 3.3 violent crimes are committed for every police officer. Twenty-five years ago, the ratio was exactly opposite. It is not surprising that we have an epidemic of crime in this country when the chances of being caught, prosecuted and convicted are so low. The average criminal has no reason to fear law enforcement. The obvious solution is to increase the deterrent through more police and swift and sure punishments.
    2. Put More Criminals in Prison.
    The premise is simple: a criminal in prison cannot shoot your family. While the idea of incarceration is not new, some of the recent findings are. A 1992 publication by the Justice Department entitled, “The Case for More Incarceration” showed the following:
    That incarceration is cheaper than letting a criminal out on the streets.
    That although the crime rate is high, the rate of increase has been going down since we started putting more people in prison.
    That blacks and whites are treated equally and that the vast majority of law-abiding African-Americans would gain most from more incarceration of criminals because African-Americans are more likely to be victims of violent crime.
    Putting criminals behind bars keeps them off the streets and is less expensive to society than letting them back out on the street.
    3. Focus on Habitual Criminals.
    The same publication by the Justice Department also found that much violent crime is committed by people who have already been in the criminal justice system. This included those who have been arrested, convicted, or imprisoned, or who are on probation or parole. The chronic offender has had 5 or more arrests by the age of 18 and has gotten away with dozens of other crimes.
    Police departments that target “serious habitual offenders” and put them behind bars have found the number of violent crimes as well as property crimes drops significantly. Arresting, prosecuting, convicting, and incarcerating this small percentage of criminals will make communities safer.
    4. Keep Violent Criminals in Prison Longer.
    Most citizens are shocked to find out that violent criminals serve only 5.5 years for murder or 3 years for rape. But those are the sobering statistics wrought from lenient early-release practices.
    Government statistics (for 36 states and the District of Columbia) show that although violent offenders received an average sentence of seven years and eleven months imprisonment, they actually served an average of only two years and eleven months in prison–or only 37 percent of their imposed sentences. The statistics also show that, typically, 51 percent of violent criminals were discharged from prison in two years or less, and 76 percent were back on the streets in four years or less.
    We need to revise our current parole and probation procedures. Criminals who knowhow to work the system can be set free on bond, on their own recognizance, for re-habilitation, or for supervision. Three out of four people serving a criminal sentence are currently on probation or parole. In other words, they are out on the streets ready to commit another crime!
    Many states are enacting “truth in sentencing” laws that require violent criminals to serve at least 85 percent of their prison sentence before becoming eligible for parole or other early release possibilities. Other states and the federal government are considering “three strikes and you’re out.” These laws mandate that those convicted of three violent crimes be put in jail for life.
    Incarceration incapacitates violent criminals and keeps them off the streets, but it also deters would-be criminals. Criminologists have shown that an increase in arrest rates reduces the crime rate, and they have also demonstrated that an increase in sentence length also decreases crime rates. Catching more criminals, convicting more criminals, and keeping more criminals behind bars will reduce the crime rate.


  95. Mohammed Moosa
    Probe Ministries
    Crime in America
    Kerby Anderson
    ——————————————————————————–
    Case #1: Polly Klaas of Petaluma, California, was abducted from her suburban home during a sleepover with two friends on October 1, 1993, and subsequently murdered. Her alleged assailant, Richard Allen Davis, had been sentenced to sixteen years in prison for kidnapping, but was released in June after serving only eight years of that sentence.
    Case #2: Michael Jordan’s father, James Jordan, was fatally shot in the chest on Interstate 95 in North Carolina on July 23, 1993. Charged with the murder were Larry Martin Demery and Daniel Andre Green. Demery had been charged in three previous cases involving theft, robbery, and forgery. He was awaiting trial for bashing a convenience-store clerk in the head with a cinder block during a robbery. Green had been paroled after serving two years of a six- year sentence for attempting to kill a man by smashing him in the head with an axe, leaving his victim in a coma for three months.
    Americans are scared, and they are angry. The scary orgy of violent crime has made average citizens afraid to walk the streets in front of their homes. And this fear has fueled a public cry to end the killing fields in America. Americans have had enough, and they want to know why known criminals were let back out on the streets so they could kill Polly Klaas and James Jordan.
    In America, the crime clock continues to click: one murder every 22 minutes, one rape every 5 minutes, one robbery every 49 seconds, and one burglary every 10 seconds. And the cost of crime continues to mount: $78 billion for the criminal justice system, $64 billion for private protection, $202 billion in loss of life and work, $120 billion in crimes against business, $60 billion in stolen goods and fraud, $40 billion from drug abuse, and $110 billion from drunk driving. When you add up all the costs, crime costs Americans a stunning $675 billion each year.
    In addition to the financial cost is the psychological cost of devastated lives and a loss of security. In recent months, even apathetic Americans have been shaken from their false sense of security as they have seen criminals invade nearly every sanctuary where they felt they were safe: their cars (James Jordan); their public transit (the Long Island Rail Road murders by Colin Ferguson); and even their bedrooms (the abduction of Polly Klaas).
    Past solutions seem ineffective. Massive spending on social programs, massive spending on prisons, and sweeping changes in sentences seem to have little effect. No wonder there is such anger and a clamor for change.
    Current Trends in Crime
    1.The Crime Rate Is Increasing.
    The recent string of heinous crimes does not represent a sudden wave of crime in America. Violent crime actually has been steadily increasing since the 1960s (though violent crime rates did dip for a time during the early 1980s). But in addition to the steady increase of crime has been the changing nature of these crimes. For example, there has been a pronounced increase in the prevalence of stranger-on-stranger robberies and drive-by shootings.
    2. Teenagers Are Responsible for a Disproportionate Share of Violent Crime.
    The violent-crime rate seems to rise and fall in tandem with the number of teens in the population. But recently, teen violence has exploded (murder arrests of teens jumped 92 percent since 1985) during a period in which the teen population remained steady or declined.
    3.The Median Age of Criminals Is Dropping.
    The perception that criminals are getting younger is backed up by statistics. In 1982, 390 teens ages 13-15 were arrested for murder. A decade later, this total jumped to 740.
    4. A Majority of the Crimes Are Committed by Habitual Criminals.
    Criminologist Marvin Wolfgang compiled arrest records for males born and raised in Philadelphia (in 1945 and in 1958). He found that just 7 percent in each age group committed two-thirds of all violent crime. This included three-fourths of the rapes and robberies, and nearly all of the murders. They also found that this 7 percent had five or more arrests before the age of 18.
    5. Crime Does Pay: Most Criminals Are Not Caught or Convicted.
    Consider these statistics compiled by professor Morgan Reynolds (Texas A&M University) concerning burglary:
    500,000 burglaries take place each month
    250,000 of these are reported to the police
    35,000 arrests are made
    30,450 prosecutions take place
    24,060 are convicted
    6,010 are sent to prison; the rest paroled
    Of the 500,0000 burglaries, only 6,000 burglars went to jail! And if this 1 percent effectiveness ratio isn’t disturbing enough, professor Reynolds found that the average time served was only 13 months.
    How to Fight Crime
    1. Put More Police on the Street.
    The statistics from professor Reynolds illustrate the problem for burglary. Similar statistics exist for other major crimes including murder. Today 3.3 violent crimes are committed for every police officer. Twenty-five years ago, the ratio was exactly opposite. It is not surprising that we have an epidemic of crime in this country when the chances of being caught, prosecuted and convicted are so low. The average criminal has no reason to fear law enforcement. The obvious solution is to increase the deterrent through more police and swift and sure punishments.
    2. Put More Criminals in Prison.
    The premise is simple: a criminal in prison cannot shoot your family. While the idea of incarceration is not new, some of the recent findings are. A 1992 publication by the Justice Department entitled, “The Case for More Incarceration” showed the following:
    That incarceration is cheaper than letting a criminal out on the streets.
    That although the crime rate is high, the rate of increase has been going down since we started putting more people in prison.
    That blacks and whites are treated equally and that the vast majority of law-abiding African-Americans would gain most from more incarceration of criminals because African-Americans are more likely to be victims of violent crime.
    Putting criminals behind bars keeps them off the streets and is less expensive to society than letting them back out on the street.
    3. Focus on Habitual Criminals.
    The same publication by the Justice Department also found that much violent crime is committed by people who have already been in the criminal justice system. This included those who have been arrested, convicted, or imprisoned, or who are on probation or parole. The chronic offender has had 5 or more arrests by the age of 18 and has gotten away with dozens of other crimes.
    Police departments that target “serious habitual offenders” and put them behind bars have found the number of violent crimes as well as property crimes drops significantly. Arresting, prosecuting, convicting, and incarcerating this small percentage of criminals will make communities safer.
    4. Keep Violent Criminals in Prison Longer.
    Most citizens are shocked to find out that violent criminals serve only 5.5 years for murder or 3 years for rape. But those are the sobering statistics wrought from lenient early-release practices.
    Government statistics (for 36 states and the District of Columbia) show that although violent offenders received an average sentence of seven years and eleven months imprisonment, they actually served an average of only two years and eleven months in prison–or only 37 percent of their imposed sentences. The statistics also show that, typically, 51 percent of violent criminals were discharged from prison in two years or less, and 76 percent were back on the streets in four years or less.
    We need to revise our current parole and probation procedures. Criminals who knowhow to work the system can be set free on bond, on their own recognizance, for re-habilitation, or for supervision. Three out of four people serving a criminal sentence are currently on probation or parole. In other words, they are out on the streets ready to commit another crime!
    Many states are enacting “truth in sentencing” laws that require violent criminals to serve at least 85 percent of their prison sentence before becoming eligible for parole or other early release possibilities. Other states and the federal government are considering “three strikes and you’re out.” These laws mandate that those convicted of three violent crimes be put in jail for life.
    Incarceration incapacitates violent criminals and keeps them off the streets, but it also deters would-be criminals. Criminologists have shown that an increase in arrest rates reduces the crime rate, and they have also demonstrated that an increase in sentence length also decreases crime rates. Catching more criminals, convicting more criminals, and keeping more criminals behind bars will reduce the crime rate.
    5. Focus National and State Resources on Criminals, Not Weapons.
    Many politicians seem to think that crime can be fought through gun control rather than criminal control.
    No matter where you come down on the issue of gun control, consider the following statistics. Only 1 percent of all guns purchased in America are ever used in the commmission of a crime. And of those 1 percent, 5 out of 6 were obtained illegally. At its best, any gun control bill is only going to affect a very small portion of the criminal element.
    6. Provide Alternative Sentencing for Non-Violent Offenders.
    Criminals who are not a physical threat to society should not be locked up with violent criminals but should be sentenced to projects that will pay back the community. Criminals should pay restitution to their victims and the community. Locking up violent criminals makes sense; locking up non-violent criminals does not. Currently it costs more to warehouse a criminal for one year than it does to send the brightest student to Harvard University. Alternative sentencing for non-violent offenders will reduce taxpayer cost and generate funds which can provide restitution for the crime committed.
    7. Develop Community Programs Which Deter Crime.
    Many cities have introduced curfews prohibiting minors from being on the streets from 10 P.M. to 6 A.M. Exceptions are made for those passing through town or on their way to or from a political or religious event.
    Some neighborhoods have found erecting roadblocks effective in reducing crime. Drug dealing drops dramatically when police check for driver’s licenses and when local citizens write down license plate numbers and film activities with hand-held videos. Setting up a neighborhood crime watch program has also been a major deterrent to crime in many neighborhoods.
    Citizens and legislators need to take back the streets. If we implement these common sense measures in the legislature and in our communities, we can make our streets safe again.


  96. Mohammed Moosa
    Dear Readers,
    the report is to know that what the crimes are going on the rest
    of the world ,and to prevent from them.
    i really suggest every reader to get through these reports and that the know what people can do and aware of cruelty done by criminals and prevention from these type.
    have this link http://www.crimelibrary.com where you get through millions of crimestories and how they were caught and how to fight agaisnt crimes.
    Regards,
    Mohammed Moosa


  97. ahmad rusais
    i’m saudi arabian,living in lebanon.Saudi arabia is the no. one country who has such conservative policies. Those policies abide by the constitution of islam, despite the fact that there are some men who are misstreating their wifes there.Still, this doesn’t make saudiarabia a “prison”. All in all, I like to say, that women are right, & that we don’t have anything against them, though they shouldn’t take such a “discriminating” stand from their caring country. This is what i say, and if the women have anything against their husbands, then u have the utter rights to get divorced


  98. majed alqurashi
    Women are purchise ,, I just wana say few words cose i came across and i want to say something ,,, we alwyse hear about women rights and how they are fighting to get it, men are every where we want to be equalized they say, some say that islam is humlating women will i can say one thing ,, look at women every where else than Saudi Arabia, they are beeing abused, rabed , Islam came a long time ago and give the actual women rights actully Islam brought humanity rights ,, it said how women should be treated, and how they should be respected ,, but Islam didnt say hey women dont you work,, or dont go out , Islam said men should work to support women becouse of what god gave to men and here am responding to what rasha i think said about women are same as men ,, any one with mind can see the diffrence !!! in power,for example and other thing i dont rather to mintion it but if u have a mind and can think compare men to women and you will see the diffrence wide and clear,, any how ,,if a man is sick the woman should work , and if he is not she can work ,, am not against women or with men we complete each other ,, the queen of the honny makers :P is a woman or lets say female,, i think females and males are equal in many things but they have to understand and support each other ,, i hope it all work for the best in Saudi Arabia ,, and all
    muslims countries :)


  99. Kawthar (Sudan)
    Kinda reminds me of Animal Farm
    “All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others”.


  100. Mohammed Moosa
    MR / MISS KAWTHER
    NO NOT COMPARE ANIMALS WITH HUMAN BEINGS. THERE IS NOTHING COMMON BETWEEN THEN.
    ALLAH SUBHANA TALAHUS THE MOST BEAUTIFUL CREATIONS IS HUMAN BEINGS .


  101. Al-ameen
    Dear all my salaam and ramadaan mubaarak.
    Dr. Zain Al-Abidin’s call for awareness of sexual issues is well thought-out. This will give young boys and girls enough awareness to understand what touch/approach is right and what is wrong. This will go a long way in preventing sexual abuses.
    Esra’a Wrote:
    men get custody of the children because men are guarenteed to be muslim in islamic marriages.
    This doesn’t make any sense.
    Esra, I’m afraid here you may be wrong, as I have read a scholar saying, muslim men marrying women from people of book is allowed in muslim theological countries and is not preferable in U.S like non muslim countries because, in such non-muslim countries they tend to hand over in-charge of children to the mothers who may not be a muslim.
    =======================
    I think transparency, accountability are much wanted aspects in such closed societies. Strict laws against freedom of expression, blashphemy laws are curse to a society. Transparency should be brought in governance and religious affairs and this hush-hushing should be stopped for good results. Also there should be accountability for rulers and powerful lobby of clerics and also for the violations of mutaween police.
    http://sasinsaudi.com/2008/03/28/sick-in-the-head-r-us/
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1874471.stm
    Only when people who cause these right violations and murders are prosecuted, we can say justice has been done. So accountability is very important.
    It’s tragic and heart-rending to see a wonderful philosophy misused for vested and perverted interests. God bless all those people who stand up against such anti-human, anti-religious restrictions.
    http://www.hrw.org/reports/2004/saudi0704/7.htm
    And why many saudi men behave like sex-maniacs I’m not sure. May be its due to extreme suppression. Recently scores of women(including married ones) from Kerala, India —working as maids were rescued from sexual abuses of these people. They were a tortured lot with lot of wounds and injuries on their bodies. This goes to prove that a faith like Islam has to be practiced from heart and not from enforcement by authorities— otherwise they’ll do all they are enforced for and still will remain such sick/ non-spiritual people.


  102. Kawthar ( Sudan )
    Al-ameen,
    This is a rather old thread, and I cannot recall all the points that were touched on, but I do know for sure that Esra’a didn’t say:
    men get custody of the children because men are guarenteed to be muslim in islamic marriages.
    She was quoting a previous commentator.
    That being said, a point that this remark rasies is that Muslim women cannot marry non-Muslims. It’s true that there have been a few voices proclaiming that it’s Islamically acceptable (Khaled Abou El Fadl comes to mind), I don’t see that view being accepted by the mainstream.


  103. Al-ameen
    Kawthar, I did know when I posted my post– that the original idea of “Custody of children” was posted by a poster with user handle “bob” and not “Esra”. Please refer to the posts I’ve copied down.
    On 08.11.07 at 15:53 MST
    Esra’a Wrote:
    men get custody of the children because men are guarenteed to be muslim in islamic marriages.
    This doesn’t make any sense.
    On 08.11.07 at 14:12 MST
    bob Wrote:
    men get custody of the children because men are guarenteed to be muslim in islamic marriages. since the bigotted islamic laws forbid women to marry non-muslims. so if you side w/ the man legally you are siding with the side guarenteed to be muslim.
    Indeed my reply was to “Esra’s” post and not to the post of “Bob”. Also
    This doesn’t make any sense
    was “Esra’s” statement and not mine. I think missing quotes complicated my post. And I hope now the confusion is cleared. And about thread being rather old, I believe the matter is still relevant, if it’s not— then the author of this thread can finish the thread by saying this matter is no more relevant or at least can close the thread by saying no more replies are allowed. As long as this blog post is up, people like me will end-up here while searching something :) and will post replies—-so in true sense it won’t become old.
    That being said, a point that this remark rasies is that Muslim women cannot marry non-Muslims. It’s true that there have been a few voices proclaiming that it’s Islamically acceptable (Khaled Abou El Fadl comes to mind), I don’t see that view being accepted by the mainstream.
    That’s interesting viewpoint Kawthar very rarely expressed by the mainstream.


  104. shahid grewal
    Drear Esra hope u will fine and doing ur well,
    i have read this first time today and like it most,yes ofcourse is an important discussion of the world.IT IS VERY CLEAR IN ISLAM THAT A MAN IS ALLOWED TO GET 4 NO MARRIAGES BUT CONDITION IS ALSO VERY CLEAR… IT I WRITEN IN QURAN THAT YOU ARE ALLOWED TO GET MERRY UP TO 4 NO WOMEN IF U CAN DO THE JUSTICE, MEAN WHILE IT HAS CLEARLY WRITEN THAT YOU WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO DO.


  105. Mohammed Moosa
    why… is a man is allowed to marry more than one wife, in Islam. The Polygamy actually means that… ‘A person who has more than one Spouse’. It is divided into two categories – ‘Polygeny’… in which, a man has more than one wife, and ‘Polyendry’… in which, a woman has got more than one husband. People normally, think Polygamy means… ‘A man can only… man can marry more than one wife’ – Polygamy means both… ‘A person having more than one spouse’. If a man has more than one wife, it’s called ‘Polygeny’… and if a woman has more than one husband, it is called ‘Polyendry’. But since the sister has mainly asked the question… ‘Why is a man allowed to marry more than one wife?’ I will answer, why is Polygeny al¬lowed in Islam. Qur’an happens to be the only Religious book on the face of the earth, which says… ‘Marry only one’. There is no Religious book on the face of the earth, which says… ‘Marry only one’.
    You read the Geeta, you read the Veda, you read the Ramayana, you read the Mahabharta, you read the Bible – No where it is mentioned… ‘Marry only one’ – Its only mentioned in the Qur’an. In fact if you read the Hindu Scriptures, most of the kings… most of the kings had several wives – King Dashrat had more than one wife, Lord Krishna had several wives. If you read the Jewish Scriptures, the Jewish law allowed ‘Polygeny’ in the 11th century. It was only when Rabi Gurdshom Benjahuda, he passed a Signord and said… ‘Polygeny should not be allowed’. Still, it was practiced by the Septranic Jewish community, in the Muslim countries… until in 1950, the chief Rabainite of Israel, put a ban on it. The Christian Bible allows Polygeny – only a couple of centuries ago, the Church put a ban on it. Even if you analyse the legal aspect of India, the Indian law allowed a Hindu man to have more than one wife. It was only in 1954, when the Hindu Marriage Act was passed, and if I am wrong Justice Kazi can correct me – When the Hindu marriage Act was passed in 1954, which put a ban, and prohibited the Hindu man to marry more than one wife. If you see the statistics, according to a committee report on ‘The status of women in Islam’, which was published in 1975, on page No. 66 and 67, it states the percentage of Polygamous marriages. And it said that… ‘The percentage in which the Hindus did Polygenous marriages, it was 5.06, and the percentage of Muslim Polygenous marriages, was only 4.31’. Let us leave the statistics, aside… let us come to the main point – why did Islam allow Polygeny? As I mentioned earlier, Qur’an is the only Religious book on the face of the earth which says… ‘Marry only one’. It is mentioned in Surah Nisa, Ch. No. 4, Verse No. 3, that… ‘You can marry women of your choice, in twos, threes or fours, but if you can not do justice, marry only one’. This statement… ‘Marry only one’, is only given in the Qur’an – it is not there in any other Religious books. In pre-Islamic Arabia, men had several wives… Some people had hundreds of wives. Islam put an upper limit to Polygamy – Maximum four. And if you can have more than one wife, only on the condition, that you can do equal justice between the two, or bet¬ween the three, or four – otherwise only one. And the same Surah… Surah Nisa, Ch. No. 4, Verse No. 129, says that…, ‘It is very difficult for a man to be just, between his wives’. So Polygamy is an exception… it is not the rule – Many people think that Islam says…, you should compulsory marry more than one wife. There are five categories of do’s and don’ts, in Islam. 1st category is compulsory, which is ‘Farz’, the 2nd category is ‘Recommended’ or ‘Encouraged’, the 3rd category is the ‘Permissible’ category, the 4th category is the ‘Discouraged’ category, and the last is prohibited or ‘Forbidden’ – Polygeny, falls in the middle category of, ‘Permissible’. There is no statement in any Hadith, or in the Qur’an which says that… ‘If a man marries more than one wife, he is a better Muslim than a person who marries only one wife’. Let us analyse logically, why does Islam allow a man, to marry more than one wife? By nature, men and women are born… male and females are born, in equal proportion. But medical science tells us that… ‘The fetus… if it’s a female, it is more stronger than the male fetus.’ Pediatric knowledge tells us, that… a female child has got more resistance, than the male child – A female child can fight germs and disease, much more stronger and a better way, than the male child. *** Medical science tells us, that the female is health wise a stronger sex, than the male – so in the Pediatric stage itself, the female ratio is higher than the male ratio. Wars take place in the world, and during wars, more males are killed than the female. Even the recent war which took place… in the recent war which took place in Afghanistan, approximately more than one and a half million people were martyred, out of which most of them were men. Statistics tells us that accidents take place – More of the men die in accidents, than female – More male death takes place due to cigarette smoking, than female death. Therefore, we have more females in the world, as compared to the male. India is one of the country, besides the few of the Asian countries, and Africa, in which the female population is more than the male population. And the reason I have given you … because more than one million fetuses are… female fetuses are being aborted, every year. And because of the high rate of infanticide… female infanticide – that is the reason, that females are less than the male. Otherwise, you stop this evil practice, and within a few decade, you’ll have that the male population is… will become much less than the female population. In New York alone, there are 1 million females more than male – In US, alone there are 7.8 million females more than males, and out of the male population of New York, 1/3 are Gay. They are Sodomites – That means, they can not find female partners – And there are more than 25 million Gays in America. In Britain alone, there are more than 4 million females, more than males – In Germany alone there are 5 million females more, than males – In Russia alone, there are 7 million females, more than males – And God knows, how many million females are there more than the males, in this whole world. If suppose my sister happens to live in America, and suppose the market is saturated, every man has found a female partner for himself – Still there will be more than 30 million females in USA alone, who will not be able to find husbands. And suppose my sister who is living in America, happens to be amongst the unfortunate ladies, who has not found a partner yet – The only option remaining for her is, that she either marries a husband… she marries a man who already has a wife, or she becomes public prop¬erty – There is no third option. And believe me I have posed this question to hundreds of Non-Muslims, and every one opted for the first – No one so far, has opted for the second. But there are some people who are smart, and he said that… ‘I would prefer my sister remaining a virgin’. Believe me, medical science tells us, that a man or woman cannot remain a virgin, throughout her life. She cannot remain a virgin, throughout her life, without indulging in illicit sex or sexual perversion, because daily, sex hormones are being liberated in the body. And those great men, who claim to have renounced the world, for example the Sages and the Sants, who go to mountains and Himalayas… behind them, you find the devadasis going – for what? According to a report… according to a report… ‘Out of the Priests and the Nuns of the Church of England, the majority indulge in fornication and homosexuality’ – there is no option… there no third option. The only option is, that you marry a husband who already has a wife, or you become a public property.


  106. Rashida
    Hello my name is Rashida I am from Lebonon but now I live in London
    I have been most interested by this thread and I have enjoyed particularly the comments of Esra.
    I want to respond to Mohammed Moosa , respectfully, I think you are making these statistics up. There is not 3 million more females in the UK than males, it is about the same, check here. And 1/3 of people in New York are not gay. Also people aren’t gay because they have no other option in free societies. Please, if I am wrong provide the statistics ?


  107. Berni
    Dear Sir, Madam.
    I was born in Saudi and lived and educated in Saudi public schools but I was denied Saudi citizenship because I belonged to no Islamic sect (I consider all Islamic sects as misguided and leading to Hell.) I come from a Sunni family supposed to be the first Muslims but I try to be a scientist, not a Muslim or otherwise. Muslims say Islam is the only incorruptible religion. The opposite is true. Islam is the only corrupt religion.
    The problem with Muslims is that they only see Islam through the eyes of Hadith and Sunnah. While Quran is our only holy book, Hadith & Sunnah were written more than 2 centuries after the death of the Prophet and the methodology adopted for their verification is questionable. FYI, Islam was revealed to me exactly as it was revealed to Rashad de http://www.submission.org.
    However, I don’t think all Hadith are wrong and misleading. Only those Hadiths are valid that are inline with Quran. Our problem is that we blindly follow our scholars and refuse to adopt independent inquisition. In fact, innovation (Bid’ah) is prohibited in orthodox Islam. Blindly following someone is called Shirk (polytheism) in Quran and there are many kinds of polytheism. This way, after 14 centuries, we Muslims are still polytheists as we always were.
    What is needed is re-sorting of all Hadith and Sunnah in light of Quran. Contradictory Hadiths should then be properly marked and eliminated from text books. The coming generation then will hold some hope in following (or even understanding) the message that was revealed to me.
    Since this forum discusses women in Islam (in general), let me state one example. The polygamy in Quran has actually 3 conditions, not one. The first is that the couple be child-less. The second is that they are not ready to adopt and the third is that the husband does justice to all wives.
    The problem with Saudi is that Mullahs (clerics) are part of the government and the holy rule of secularism is considered prohibited in orthodox Islam. According to Quran, religion cannot be enforced (La ikraha fi al-deen, qad tabayyana al-rushd min al-ghay…) therefore, secularism’s holiness.
    The history tells us that unless men rise up for the rights of women, there will be no hope.
    I would like someone to tell me if my transliteration of Quran verse is acceptable or should I use English translations instead?
    Ciao, Berni de Rawalpindi.


  108. Mohammed Moosa
    Most Muslims know that Islam is a universal religion, meant for all mankind.
    Allah (swt) is the Lord of the entire Universe, and Muslims have been entrusted
    with the duty of conveying His message to all mankind. Alas, most Muslims
    today have become callous towards this duty! While accepting Islam as the best
    way of life for ourselves, most of us are unwilling to share this knowledge with those to whom the message has not yet been conveyed.
    The Arabic word Da’wah means a call or an invitation. In Islamic context, it
    means to strive for the propagation of Islam.
    The Glorious Qur’an says:
    “Ah! Who is more unjust than those who conceal the testimony they
    have from Allah? But Allah is not unmindful of what ye do!”
    [Al-Qur’an 2:140]
    In conveying the message of Islam to a non-Muslim, it is usually not sufficient to highlight only the positive nature of Islam. Most non-Muslims are not convinced about the truth of Islam because there are a few questions about Islam at the back of their minds that remain unanswered.
    They may agree with your contentions about the positive nature of Islam. But,
    in the same breath, they will say – “Ah! But you are the same Muslims who
    marry more than one woman. You are the same people who subjugate women
    by keeping them behind the veil. You are fundamentalists, etc.”
    I personally prefer asking the non-Muslims upfront, with their limited
    knowledge, whether right or wrong, from whichever source it may be, what they
    feel is wrong in Islam. I encourage them to be very frank and open and convince
    them that I can take criticism about Islam.
    In the past few years of my Da’wah experience, I have realized that there are
    barely twenty most common questions that a common non-Muslim has
    regarding Islam. Whenever you ask a non-Muslim, “what do you feel is wrong in
    Islam?”, he poses five or six questions, and these questions invariably fall
    among the twenty most common questions.
    hen at least in removing misconceptions about Islam and neutralizing the
    negative thinking about Islam and Muslims that the non-Muslims have. A very
    few non-Muslims may have counter arguments to these replies, for which
    further information may be required.
    The common misconceptions about Islam arise in the minds of a majority of
    non-Muslims, because they are constantly being bombarded with
    misinformation about Islam. International media is mainly controlled by the
    western world, whether it is international satellite channels, radio stations, news papers, magazines or books. Recently the Internet has become a powerful
    medium of information. Though it is not controlled by anybody, one finds a large amount of virulent propaganda about Islam on the Internet. Of course, Muslims too are utilizing this tool to portray the right image of Islam and Muslims, but they are far behind as compared to the propaganda against Islam. I hope the efforts by the Muslims will increase and continue to be pursued.
    There are many non-Muslims who have studied Islam. Most of them have only
    read books on Islam written by biased critics of Islam. These non-Muslims have
    an additional set of twenty common misconceptions about Islam. For instance,
    they claim to have found contradictions in the Qur’an, they contend that the
    Qur’an is unscientific, etc. There is another set of additional replies clearing these twenty misconceptions among non-Muslims who have studied Islam from distorted sources. I have also given the replies to twenty additional less
    common questions among the non-Muslims in my public talks and book on
    “Answers to Common Questions about Islam by Non-Muslims who have some
    knowledge about Islam”.
    Let us now analyse why Islam allows a man to have more than one wife.
    3. Qur’an permits limited polygyny
    As I mentioned earlier, Qur’an is the only religious book on the face of the earth
    that says ‘marry only one’. The context of this phrase is the following verse from
    Surah Nisa of the Glorious Qur’an:
    “Marry women of your choice, two, or three, or four; but if ye fear that
    ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one.”
    [Al-Qur’an 4:3]
    Before the Qur’an was revealed, there was no upper limit for polygyny and
    many men had scores of wives, some even hundreds. Islam put an upper limit
    of four wives. Islam gives a man permission to marry two, three or four women,
    only on the condition that he deals justly with them.
    In the same chapter i.e. Surah Nisa verse 129 says:
    “Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women….”
    [Al-Qur’an 4:129]
    Therefore polygyny is not a rule but an exception. Many people are under the
    misconception that it is compulsory for a Muslim man to have more than one wife.
    Broadly, Islam has five categories of Do’s and Don’ts:
    (i) ‘Fard’ i.e. compulsory or obligatory
    (ii) ‘Mustahab’ i.e. recommended or encouraged
    (iii) ‘Mubah’ i.e. permissible or allowed
    (iv) ‘Makruh’ i.e. not recommended or discouraged
    (v) ‘Haraam’ i.e. prohibited or forbidden
    Polygyny falls in the middle category of things that are permissible. It cannot be said that a Muslim who has two, three or four wives is a better Muslim as
    compared to a Muslim who has only one wife.
    Average life span of females is more than that of males
    By nature males and females are born in approximately the same ratio. A
    female child has more immunity than a male child. A female child can fight the
    germs and diseases better than the male child. For this reason, during the
    pediatric age itself there are more deaths among males as compared to the
    females.
    During wars, there are more men killed as compared to women. More men die
    due to accidents and diseases than women. The average life span of females
    is more than that of males, and at any given time one finds more widows in the
    world than widowers.
    5. India has more male population than female due to female
    foeticide and infanticide
    India is one of the few countries, along with the other neighbouring countries, in
    which the female population is less than the male population. The reason lies in
    the high rate of female infanticide in India, and the fact that more than one
    million female foetuses are aborted every year in this country, after they are
    identified as females. If this evil practice is stopped, then India too will have
    more females as compared to males.
    6. World female population is more than male population
    In the USA, women outnumber men by 7.8 million. New York alone has one
    million more females as compared to the number of males, and of the male
    population of New York one-third are gays i.e sodomites. The U.S.A as a whole
    has more than twenty-five million gays. This means that these people do not
    wish to marry women. Great Britain has four million more females as compared
    to males. Germany has five million more females as compared to males. Russia
    has nine million more females than males. God alone knows how many million
    more females there are in the whole world as compared to males.
    7. Restricting each and every man to have only one wife is not
    practical Even if every man got married to one woman, there would still be more than thirty million females in U.S.A who would not be able to get husbands
    (considering that America has twenty five million gays). There would be more
    than four million females in Great Britain, 5 million females in Germany and nine million females in Russia alone who would not be able to find a husband.
    Suppose any sister happens to be one of the unmarried women living in USA, or
    suppose your sister happens to be one of the unmarried women in USA. The
    only two options remaining for her are that she either marries a man who
    already has a wife or becomes ‘public property’. There is no other option. All
    those who are modest will opt for the first.
    I invite berni to come in islam , learn more and that you know that it is the correct path and till the world collapse quran which is the final reveal of allah and not like cristians and jews writing their own book saying the message from god , laanah on the people who writes and says its a reveal of allah
    quran is never changed and will never till the world is there


  109. Mohammed Moosa
    Dear Rasheeda,
    i had given the accurate statistics in the last report,
    The census gave details of gender differences, revealing that women were increasing their majority over men.
    Whereas in the past women only began to outnumber men from the late 40s and over, now there are more women than men in all age brackets from 22 onwards.
    Census officials said that improved health-care and living standards had contributed to the ageing population.
    The proportion of over 60s has risen from 16% to 21% of the population in the past 50 years, while the proportion of under 16s has fallen from 24% to 20%.
    Office of National Statistics (ONS) officials said the overall population figure was smaller than expected because of ”the great difficulty in calculating immigration and especially numbers of people leaving the country”.
    But the ONS expressed total confidence in the accuracy of the £255 million survey, calling it “the most accurate census result that could be achieved using the best methods available”.


  110. bolank
    kontol abizz gag da yg ngentot ga seru ah mening liat org indonesia ngentot ama kambing haha… dari pada di sana copoo abizzz ga da yg seru dasar gembel…. hahahha….


  111. tarek

  112. damot
    i think muslim womens should be inside their houses serving their fathers , husbands , brothers and all other family members…and morever dont let them use internet unless untill theres no key logger install in it ..and we should keep eyes on her mobile phones to know whom she is contacting and never let her go alone anywhere for shopping… and i am not arab i am muslim boy from EUROPE AND YES I AM WHITE EUROPEAN …and MUSLIM WOMENS SHOULD NEVER EVER BE ALLOWED TO DRIVE CAR ESPECIALLY IN SAUDI ARABIA.


  113. Perteng Othoga
    Saudi Arabia takes pride in having their women covered entirely in veil. This kind of tradition has influenced arab world which is good because it looks as though these women are virgins although it is no guarantee. Of course in reality or at first impression, veiling in Saudi Arabia is more of ignorance than a virtue to the world in general. To a woman who claims she is happy with that tradition is simply a hypocrite. And to men who appreciates it is simply insecured and envious. I believe not until we realize this, can we have the right to discuss equality of women in our society


  114. Perteng Othoga
    Historically speaking, before this Abrahamic religion was born, women were topless and men wore almost nothing to cover their genitals. And they don’t have any problem with that. Everybody is happy and nobody is thinking dirty. Then came Judaism, then Christianity and Islam. All of them say Haram. Cover your genitals, cover your breast (did not say it turns them on) or we will kill you because heaven will not accept you. From then on, man’s body has became a babel and cannot find peace within himself as he taught the world what a clean mind is and what beauty there is in pedophilia.


  115. Perteng Othoga
    In Saudi Arabia, if you leave a boy and a girl alone in the street, chances are it is the boy most likely than the girl to be raped first by sex starved Saudi men. This is because a girl symbolizes death or trouble that it becomes a tradition men have sex with men to vent their sexual needs. This explains why touching a man’s butt is haram and means sex. In the west it is not. No sexual connection. These are very prevalent in Saudi Arabia and is considered normal.


  116. دردشة
    Hello my name is Rashida I am from Lebonon but now I live in London
    I have been most interested by this thread and I have enjoyed particularly the comments of Esra.
    I want to respond to Mohammed Moosa , respectfully, I think you are making these statistics up. There is not 3 million more females in the UK than males, it is about the same, check here. And 1/3 of people in New York are not gay. Also people aren’t gay because they have no other option in free societies. Please, if I am wrong provide the statistics ?


  117. Mohammed Moosa
    salam alay kum,
    i would like to appreciate miss Rashida for the reply after 1 year , the comment was placed one year back and that the response is after one year , i can beleive you if you can provide the exact figures , you can prove me wrong by providing the exact statistics . there may be slight differences in my comments earlier. any how if you want to have discussion with me you can come to the personner email address m1sa2003@yahoo.com so that i reply you earlier.
    Regards
    Mohammed Moosa


  118. nabila
    I’m not from the middle east. I’m a muslim living in south africa.
    I find mohammeds statements that he can’t control himself when it come to women pretty tragic.
    In south africa, most of the boys find ideas like that horrific.
    As more than one has told me, ‘we men can control ourselves. We’re not animals’.
    In fact, they find it really annoying when people accuse them of being unable to control themselves.
    I do not wear hijab in the traditional sense. I don’t wear a headscarf and I often wear sleeveless clothing, but I’ve never had any male treat me with disrespect or objectify me because of this.
    I’m studying medicine so spend everyday with male colleagues, and patients yet I have never had a stranger trying to make moves on me with an exception of 2 different arab guys or 2 differenty occasions. Strange huh?
    I would not be happy staying indoors and secluded at all times because that’s not my personality.I love working, I love travelling and I love driving often when I’m alone!
    South africa has an extremely hig
    h rate of violent crime including rape- it is unrelated to the way people dress, more a result of various socio-economic and cultural factors, myths and the extreme poverty and hardship that affects much of the nation.
    I’m currently still looking for where in the quraan intermingling of the genders was banned. In any case, from my friends, it is a guy who is most encouraging when it comes to my search for islamic understanding.
    I’ve benefitted enormously from my interactions
    I appreciate that you are happy with the state of things in saudi, but don’t be blind and assume that its a flawless society.
    My personal opinion is that the islam as practiced today is very far away from the islam of the quraan and we need to actively try to change this situation.
    Ps- women are not inferior, even when it come to visio spatials, I’d outclass 90 percent of the guys I knew at physics, maths computer science without even really trying. I’m also way better than my brother with carpentry:P
    Excuse me if i ranted a bit :)


  119. nabila
    Also, I think there needs to be a proper revision of the hadith excluding those which are not consistant with the quraan.
    They were working on a hadith project at a univeristy in turkey but I have not heard anything about it in a while. Does anyone else know anything about it?
    Take care :)

  120. Mohammed Moosa
    Dear Nabila,
    regarding hijab
    ” And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands fathers, their sons does this words of quran mean that they should mingled other than any males who is neither their father,
    husband and son, can u please answer me that does it mean that they can move freely with any males other than these categories.
    The Qurâan says that Hijab has been prescribed for the women so that they are recognized as modest women and this will also prevent them from being molested.
    Example of twin sisters
    Suppose two sisters who are twins, and who are equally beautiful, walk down the street. One of them is attired in the Islamic hijab i.e. the complete body is covered, except for the face and the hands up to the wrists. The other sister is wearing western clothes, a mini skirt or shorts. Just around the corner there is a hooligan or ruffian who is waiting for a catch, to tease a girl. Whom will he tease? The girl wearing the Islamic Hijab or the girl wearing the skirt or the mini? Naturally he will tease the girl wearing the skirt or the mini. Such dresses are an indirect invitation to the opposite sex for teasing and molestation. The Qur’an rightly says that hijab prevents women from being molested.


  121. nabila
    Dear Mohammed,
    You left out the line part about believing men lowering their gazes and guarding their modesty.
    The recommendation is to not reveal charms/ornaments except that which appears ordinarily thereof. That would be my face, my arms, my feet too.
    The veil is drawn over my bosom, I tend to avoid nudist beaches, and I tend to not wear clothing that is extremely revealing unless I’m at home.
    There is no reason to assume that I am not to interact with people of the opposite sex from anything written above.
    Also, yes, women are advised to be modest to avoid being troubled. I am modest, I go out of my way to look super sexy and attract attention, I don’t flirt or tease, so no, I’m not asking to be molested. Neither for that matter are most girls wearing shorts or tank tops – in my society that is normal, not slutty.
    Many of the rapes that I’ve heard accounts of in SA had nothing to do with dress or flirts, kids and grannies generally don’t dress up skankily, there are more important societal factors resulting in this problem.
    In the prophets time girls went to mosque and to eid gah, they spoke at the mosque, were part of public life. Why do so many muslims ignore these facts?
    I realise that coming from a completelt different background will make it difficult for you to understand my perspective, but I do hope that you open your mind to the fact that not all women would choose to not work, not drive, not mix and that these women can be staunch, strong muslim women too, who also deserve respect.


  122. Mohammed Moosa
    Dear Nabila ,
    i live here in saudi arabia and that i can see the crime rate very very low comparatively in rest of the world , islamic laws prevent crimes ,its infact true when you apply these rules
    you can check the status of afghanistan during the period of taliban rule for 5 years and now after the taliban rule , in 5 years there were no rape case and only one murder case which was given death penalty ,even here in saudi arabia we do not hear any such cases , in years we hear one
    but u know the status of rest of the world , its your choice take it or leave it
    check the churches why people started to ignore them where there is no segregation .
    every thing is permitted , here in mosques we have segregated , its going well


  123. nabila
    Do you realise that women in afghanistan were oppressed? They were not allowed to do anything for fear of being lashed. Their islamic rights to human dignity and free choice were stripped. Their right to an education and their rights to work were removed. That is not islam. Even the veils which they were commanded to wear are not islamic, nowhere in the quraan or hadith are women ordered to cover their faces. The rule of the taliban was not islamic so don’t confuse it. It was an oppressive regime.
    Also do you realise the number or rapes that go unreported especially those committed by perpetrators known to the victim?
    In the one week I spent seeing kids at a mental hospital I realised how often it is that these crimes go unreported. Many women are more afraid of the public backlash, having to deal with the shame and are afraid of rejection of society in regards to them now being tainted.
    From the kids who were admitted, the majority had been abused by family members. These kids were all under the age of 16. One case come to mind, a 14 year old who was admitted after trying to commit suicide – during therapy her psychologist found out that she was raped by her grandfather, this kid made the psychologist swear that no one would tell her parents. What are the chances that she’s ever report it?
    It is naïve to say that keeping women at home is saving them.


  124. Ahlong Samabu
    Dear Nabila,
    In a world of where men always has the say of what women should be, one can’t help to appreciate the kind of woman you are but makes me sad so many men in this page who think they are so knowledgeable enough to change the world to their unique culture that contently sees women covered from head to foot more beautiful than women who are not.


  125. sallah hiltion
    Hi, i love you and that is why i want us to be a friend/


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  127. Duenionuses
    It sounds like you’re creating problems yourself near trying to explain this come in place of of looking at why there is a maladjusted in the first place. But still pronounced trade and objective of view.


  128. Tahir
    Assalamo alekum
    Dear brother moosa mashALLAH you have provided a detailed explanation of polygamy. unfortunately many muslims being victimised by the western media and culture are not aware of these basic facts.
    i would appreciate if you take time and share such type of enlightened discussion on a pakistani websites http://www.pakspectator.com many people from india and america who have misinformation about Islam comments on thses issues and people like you try to make them understand.
    ALLAH bless you always.
    jazakALLAH


  129. Shaheryar Khalid Afridi ( Pakistan )
    Dear All,
    an advice for Saudi women is to pray to ALLAH that there husband is kind & loving & caring so that the problem does not arrive from the start. i think if they have a problem with marrying Saudi muslims, they should marry other muslims (no ideas please). I think asking ALLAH for help is the answer to all our problems.
    As for Men (whether in Saudia or not), we have to treat them nicely, i think we can not treat everyone nicely but can certainly be good to our wife & mother. Problems can only be solved by both the parties (Men & Women), and quareling would not do any good, start from today, treat your wife well, n women should pray that they get a caring husband!!!
    May peace & blessings of ALLAH be upon us all.
    P.S.: we cannot break what is said in Quran and Quran says to treat women on an equal level. we should remember that for a change.


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    Galaxy “Взлом проект” это сайт посвященный обратной стороне чата “Галактика Знакомств” Galaxy “Vzlom proekt” jeto sajt posvjawennyj obratnoj storone chata “Galaktika Znakomstv” Tut vy smozhete besplatno skachat’ programmy dlja Mobile!! A takzhe mnogie drugie, poleznye programmy dlja PC.


  131. white hat copycat
    Nice to be visiting your blog again, it might be months for me. Nicely this post that i’ve been waited for such a long time. I need this post to carry out my work in the college, and it has very same topic with your post. Many thanks, great write about.


  132. shazada zahid mahmoud malik loan
    How stupid and ignorant some of the comments. Let me ask a question or two.
    1. What is the point of marriage?
    2. What does a man do if he needs to relieve himself?
    There is no such thing as rape in marriage because marriage is an agreement between the two consenting parties that includes sex. The whole sexual debate is an imported version of the so called Western lesbian women that had fallen foul of their boyfriends. It is unfortunate that some “so called Muslim women” have picked on the theme without understanding the propaganda behind it. These so called “Liberal Muslim women” need to look at the way women I America and the West in general are exploited – just open the 2nd page of the Sun newspaper or any Western newspapers you will see pages upon pages of naked women. This does not happen in Saudi Arabia – no one wants to see their mother, daughter or wife naked in newspapers. My advice to genuine Muslim women is to use your logic and head and not follow the philosophy that leading the West towards a disaster.


  133. Illawarrior
    Perhaps the biggest issue for Saudi women is that their law and customs dictate that the children belong to the father. How many women, even when badly mistreated, will initiate a divorce, if it means they will not see their children again? The other big issue is money. So many jobs are unavailable to Saudi women, and transport to and from work, without a man is almost impossible – if a woman divorces her husband, unless she has independent wealth, she is inviting financial disaster


  134. Illawarrior
    @ shazada zahid mahmoud malik loan … rape is any sexual encounter where one participant is not agreeing to the act – whether married or not! Even married people, male and female, have the right to say … “not tonight dear”! No-one has the right to “relieve themselves” by using another’s body against their will.


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  136. NawaF
    Peace, mercy and blessings of God
    At the outset,
    I want to tell you
    Thank you for your Dialogue for Saudi women
    But you have no right to talk about Saudi women => each country and its customs
    And of course, thankfully our habits are not haram or un-Islamic
    And though of Saudi women has its own rights in the Arab and Islamic society
    And regarding sex => Saudi women the finest level of this
    I hope everyone discusses what respect its country
    Your brother Nawaf from Saudi Arabia
    Mobile
    00966556881445

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